Meetings: CIC

Citizens Information Committee

Attendees:

Tom Alcamo

Michael List

George Hegeman

Dan Sparks

Larime Wilson

Jim Cartmell

Michael List

Set next meeting. December 8, 1998.

Tom, you want to give us a report?

Tom Alcamo

To start, I talked with Hugh Kaufman. Late last week and this week. I am going to hopefully be having a conference call with him in the state sometime this week. To start getting the process together. My initial thoughts right now, and discussing this with Mike Baker and Hugh Kaufman, is that COPA has a large EPA grant that we would like to feed off of. If I can. I have to look at the terms of the grant. Because I think it may only deal with consent decree sites. But, I would like to have them do the data base. I would like COPA, or someone of that effect, to do the database. And we could use some of that tag money for them to be in charge of that.

Jim Cartmell

What would the database be of?

Tom Alcamo

All of the sites. Where the sites have been sampled. Non consent decree. What Hugh Kaufman discussed at the last meeting. Itís just if I can make the tag grant fit this. And that's my only problem. In addition, I am going to be getting someone else assigned to this issue. Iím going to be focusing my efforts on the consent decree sites. And there will be someone in the background with this. Because I canít put the full effort now. In terms of working exclusively on this. I just donít have time. I donít know if it's going to be another project manager. Or someone from the site assessment group. We just donít have it all worked out yet. But someone else from EPA will be assigned. In addition, weíve delegated all our site access program, EPA ____ region, to IDEM. We give them large amounts of money to do sites assessment at sites. And certainly we are working in that avenue. IDEM may be taking the lead in terms of doing sampling at other sites. It doesnít mean that we are not, but we have delegated that authority to them. I canít do that under my authority with them. My contract is with the consent decree sites. And we do that kind of work. And Iíve already talked to our site assessment people, and they have been in contact with IDEM. There is some thing working behind the scenes. In addition, Hugh Kaufman has indicated to me that he is going to get some additional money from Washington D.C. if he can. So that's the latest on that. Iíll probably (or Hugh Kaufman) will be sending out an e-mail in terms of when the next meeting is.

Unknown Man

So his role is just to kind of bird dog the whole thing?

Tom Alcamo

That's kind of how I look at it. He may become more active in the sites, I donít know. His role as a ______________ is spelled out in terms of what he is here for. And Iíve talked to him. I have nothing to hide. If he wants to come into town and look at the information, I have no problem with that. I invited him into our region. He came and looked at all the information. And Iím planning on working closely with him. So, in terms of the other sites issue, that's where we are at.

Jim Cartmell

__________ From my perspective. Weíve been trying to get something done about other sites for a long time. And that's good that there is going to be some attention focused on the contamination that has been ignored at other sites. But weíve been trying to get the _______ ________ to focused his attention on the contamination that is being ignored at the consent decree sites. And Iím not certain where that is at right now.

Tom Alcamo

I donít know. Weíll have to talk to Hugh about that.

Larime Wilson

We have them. He is going to address that. And he's made that really clear.

Tom Alcamo

Well, as in terms of since these sites are under judicial review, I donít know if he can go to the Judge and basically say whatever. I had no problem having him involved in this. I feel very comfortable with the decisions we are making. We made these decisions at other sites similar to first contamination. These sites are bad, yes. There is other sites in the country that are just as bad. And we make similar decisions in terms of hot spot removal, capping, and water treatment. Iíve opened the files up to him. I have nothing to hide.

Jim Cartmell

Iím concerned whether you are trying to get the ______ _______ office involved it. Was that the CIC meeting in April when we presented information about areas of contamination at Lemon Lane. Where dumping occurred that hadnít been sampled. Or anything that arenít in the planned excavation. In other words, after you said this is our planned excavation, we presented information that indicated that there was material outside those boundaries. The thing that worried me was that nobody was familiar with it. You wasnít familiar with it. State wasnít familiar with it. Fish and Wildlife wasnít familiar with it. After I finished, Scott Hansen came up to me and said that I ought to present that to the Judge. And I thought, wait a minute, youíve already made a decision about this. You donít even know about it. It hasnít been presented to the Judge. What we are trying to get the _____ _______ to do is get the EPA to advocate stuff that you donít know about to the Judge. And that hasnít occurred yet.

Tom Alcamo

Well, to answer your question in regards to the information. It was made available considering Dick Powell did the report that you reference all the time. Certainly EarthTec was involved in placing the samples within Lemon Lane. Where they were located. And we have been available. Dan Hopkins was certainly well aware of it. And when I came with the project sampling was completed.

Jim Cartmell

The State and Fish and Wildlife indicated they werenít aware of it. You indicated that you werenít aware of it at the meeting we had.

Tom Alcamo

I was aware of it. I saw the data. I didnít study it.

Jim Cartmell

What Iím concerned about is that nobody advocated that to the Judge.

Tom Alcamo

He's more welcome to advocate it too.

Why donít I go over some of the information in the sites. Neal's Dump. Action is continuing. To date they have taken off 8 roll off boxes of compacitors. For incineration. That's approximately 2500 compacitors. Which is some where in the neighborhood of 112 tons, I think. There is still 2 roll off boxes full of compacitors that have to be shipped yet. They have basically excavated all the compacitors to date. 20 per 25 tons per roll off. That's how much they can carry on the road. To date they have taken off 3,190 tons of soil to land disposal. That's about 22 tons per truck. And they are doing about 13 trucks a day. And I am trying to increase that right now. I do have some overheads that I can show. In the Library. If you want to check out the geophysical reports in there. And also the Neal's dump work plans are in the library. These overheads here. In some areas they are in the neighborhood of, to date, their chasing contamination, based ____ clean fill right now. The clay layers at about 18 feet. They are at 15 feet in some areas and still chasing. And they figure when they get to this clay layer, there is two clay layers of 15 and somewhere of 60 or 70 feet. When they get to 18 feet in depth, the clay layers are probably going to be the end of it. That's what they are hoping. But they are still chasing contamination.

Unknown Man

Do they dig, and then measure? And dig and then measure?

Tom Alcamo

Yes.

Larime Wilson

What kind of sample are they coming up with?

Tom Alcamo

Hot. They are still at 1,000 ppm. Some areas are clean. I just got some data today that I donít have overheads for. I just picked it up this morning. And Iíll get that out to the library here as soon as possible. We couldnít make this colored because the colored printer was messed up, but they have done a number of geophysical techniques before they started the project. To determine where the metal was at. And get a feel for where the compacitors were at. There is two major areas of compacitors. This area, and this area. And they have excavated all of those. About the deepest has been 8 feet.

Jim Cartmell

(Canít hear)

Tom Alcamo

They are actually so far in depth, right now, they are in fill. Sandy, soil, fill.

Jim Cartmell

In other words, that is primarily the designated area excavating?

Tom Alcamo

Yes. They have excavated a lot of this whole area.

Larime Wilson

What depth were they at when they _______ the compacitors?

Tom Alcamo

Buried. But a lot of them were in piles. About 8 feet.

Jim Cartmell

So this is what was proposed to be excavated?

Tom Alcamo

No. This line here. When they went out there and cleared the site. They were able to look and see where it definitely look like fill was at. Where the area was capped. So they went and they just drew this line here. Because that is where they saw the area. It fit with the compacitors. Now, what's outside this area, they are digging it. But in terms of the initial information were the compacitors were at. It's been very accurate and very helpful.

That overhead gives you a feeling in terms of the set up of the site. You can actually see where these people's houses are.

A couple of grids came up clean, but they are still chasing stuff.

Jim Cartmell

How far down do they go? How many samples did they do?

Tom Alcamo

I donít have an overhead. They have done a number of areas. They brought in a drill rig and went down to 22 feet. In a number of areas. And drilled and took continuous samples.

Jim Cartmell

With each one did they take one sample?

Tom Alcamo

No. It varies. Some of those areas have all been excavated and not been verified. Like I said, I just got some data today, I donít have an overhead for.

Jim Cartmell

How many samples are they going to take to identify what was hot? How did they identify prior? By chlorine samples? By electro magnetic?

Tom Alcamo

By both. Electro magnetic is not being used to verify anything. Basically sampling is being used to verify everything. We are taking four grabs per grid and composing that into one sample. 25 X 25.

Jim Cartmell

What's the depth of the ground surface?

Tom Alcamo

It just depends. They say they are digging and it comes up clean. Then they are going to see if they have to go deeper.

Jim Cartmell

These four initial grabs, what are the depth of those?

Tom Alcamo

I got some data. There is only a few grids that have been verified as clean.

Jim Cartmell

How are they determining whether they are going to dig?

Tom Alcamo

Based on PCB's.

Jim Cartmell

So they laid out a grid within that fence area and they took four samples. And if those four samples showed something.

Tom Alcamo

No. Each grid they take four composites __________ than one sample.

Jim Cartmell

Then if that is hot, they are going to excavate?

Tom Alcamo

No. We are trying to get below under 1 ppm.

Unknown Man

Residential?

Tom Alcamo

Right.

Larime Wilson

Below 7 feet?

Tom Alcamo

We are way below that.

Larime Wilson

So the work plan is 25 ppm of a composite, not to exceed 50?

Tom Alcamo

Yes. That's what we are trying to do is get below 1 for everything. That's our goal. I donít have an overhead. I just got this this morning. And certainly you can see where they have done drilling. In terms of what the data has shown.

Larime Wilson

You think you are gong to hit clay, and then be beyond it all?

Tom Alcamo

That's at least a hope.

Larime Wilson

Because if you are trying to get 1, why donít you have 1 in the work plan? Youíve got 25 or 50.

Tom Alcamo

Because that's in terms of what's required within 40CFR761.61, that's allowed. But we are trying to get it to a point and convince CBS that it's not that much more expensive to go and dig more. And that's what we are trying to do. I guarantee you that the top, in some areas, that 15 feet is going to be clean fill.

Jim Cartmell

How many of those grids have come out clean that are not going to be excavated?

Tom Alcamo

There is some that have been excavated and came up clean. I donít know that yet.

Jim Cartmell

But they took samples from all these grids?

Tom Alcamo

No, not all of them. Basically, they are moving out from the excavation. They drilled at these locations here. Down to 22 feet. Down past the clay _____.

Jim Cartmell

How was those drill samples identified?

Tom Alcamo

Just one of the primary sites. It looked like this area here was also hot, and they used that.

Jim Cartmell

How about there by the fence?

Tom Alcamo

This area here came up all BDL. This area here, they are still digging.

Jim Cartmell

How about over here?

Tom Alcamo

it's all clean. It's all BDL. If this came up dirty, they would go farther out.

Jim Cartmell

So they are not considering that there could be another area?

Tom Alcamo

The way the _______ looks, it appears to be contiguous.

Larime Wilson

Site wide. 25 ppm. It's really not site wide. You are just going out from that _______ excavation.

Tom Alcamo

Site wide. What do you define site wide?

Larime Wilson

(canít hear)

Jim Cartmell

Let's say dumping occurred. And then some fill got put down in this grid right here. You did four samples of the fill. You donít test what's underneath after the dumping occurred. How do you know that there isnít a huge amount of compacitors?

Tom Alcamo

You have to make judgements. We feel very comfortable in terms of what CBS is doing. In terms of sampling. We do this at all of our sites. You want me to put a grid across the entire area.

Jim Cartmell

They did the electro magnetic survey at Bennetts. They did the same thing. They used it to determine sample points. And they said that the area of compacitors was actually smaller than the area they identified where metal was. They did the same thing. We identified were the metal was in this area. And it's obvious that they didnít identify where the metal was. Because when they put the fence in, they have a bunch of compacitors.

Tom Alcamo

Right. We are not using the geophysical to verify _____. I think what they did in terms of the geophysical study is valid. Because it helps determine where is metal. And metal could mean compacitors. They are right now digging in areas where it is completely clean. There is no trash, no nothing. It's clean fill. And essentially it's still hot in a number of areas, but it basically looks like normal soil. There is no trash. In the first part, when they were excavating areas within the compacitor, there was a lot of cans, and stuff like that.

Jim Cartmell

Is there any ditches out here?

Tom Alcamo

No. There is no ditches at all. I looked today. I feel comfortable in terms of the approach we are taking. We are chasing material that goes off site. We are going to get it.

Jim Cartmell

Here's a record from EPA that says there is a ditch that left the site that is apparently covered now. That had a bunch of PCB's in it.

Tom Alcamo

Well, it's covered. I canít do anything about it. I do know we will be doing additional sampling in front of Mrs. White's yard. Because she wants her mound of her yard removed. So we are going to use that for some of the fill.

Jim Cartmell

I would like you to determine where this ditch was at.

Tom Alcamo

I donít know where it's had.

Jim Cartmell

Well, you can look at old photographs.

Tom Alcamo

Iíll take a look at it. Everything is changed out there now. In terms of what has happened. Houses are right out next to there. Driveways.

Jim Cartmell

The Soil and Conversation Service has ariel photo maps of the county that can be referred to after 6 or 7 years or so.

Tom Alcamo

Iíll take a look at those.

Jim Cartmell

This is 1976. The other thing is some of these pictures. Here we are at 1982. Pictures of a tire swing. A child is standing on a compacitor. Are those pictures any place? I wanted to see them.

Tom Alcamo

Iíve looked and I havenít seen them. There are some pictures that I saw that were photo copied that you could hardly read.

I would say we are probably about 70% completed. That's just an estimate. Who knows what they are going to find in terms of them chasing material. They have right now 5,000 gallons of water stored. Theyíve used for sampling. For excavation. They pumped some water. There's a treatment plant on site that can discharge into the White River, but they have not used it yet. If they donít get much more than 10,000 gallons they wonít even be discharging. They will take that - it's like a semi truck that hold water - off site for disposal. If there is more than 10,000, they will probably run it through. There's a double carbon in it there. And they can discharge to the White River.

Air monitor: We had one exceedence of the action level. Which when they started uncovering the excavation. They have three air monitors. It's actually kind of crazy, because it's right outside the persons back door. It's around average 200 mamograms per _________. Actually it was one microgram. They had a 1.6 when they were in the middle of a super hot spot area. They can sample at night now. To ensure that - because no one is there during the day. All people are at work. And people are extremely happy in terms of what has been going on out there. And they have been very supportive. And I have a map. You can see the air monitoring locations.

Unknown Man

So given the issue of southwest and northeast. There arenít any breezes around here, it doesnít seem like a great place to have the monitors. Those are all on the south side. Right?

Tom Alcamo

The problem is where the houses are. This one, that is at the guys back door. This area over here is all big, deep ravene.

Jim Cartmell

There is another concern of air monitoring. If the air goes to the northeast. And that has to do with plants absorb PCB's. Wild creatures are going to eat those plants. There is going to be an impact on them as a result.

Tom Alcamo

I just got this last week. I will get this to Baker. This is regarding the Lemon Lane conduent study. There has been 17 wells drilled to date. Some of these have, down here in the wells of Illinois Central Spring, have three. Tomorrow they are doing a pump test on one of the wells. I donít have this on an overhead, but Iíll give you some data. 00387 has hit a lot of water at depth. And that's why they are going to be doing the pump testing at tomorrow. It's about 72 feet below ground surface. And it had 18 ppb PCB's in it. The _______ was running about the same level. That probably doesnít mean anything.

Jim Cartmell

Can they send a camera down there?

Tom Alcamo

Yes. I have not seen it yet. They are suppose to get me a report. And they said they video logged a number of holes. I have not seen them. And as soon as I get them, Iíll come here for a meeting and well go over that. I donít know if you have ever walked along that railroad track there. There is a great crossing, where some of the railroad cut through. Where you can actually see bedding plains. It's similar to probably what they are experiencing all the way down to depth. Down in this valley here, where Lang did his survey. When he came out originally in April. This one is crap. I think it was. Because there was so much water flowing in here that I think it confused them. But when he came back out again, there was some hope. It is not accurate down in this valley, but up here he has been fairly accurate. In terms of seeing flows of water. They have not found the candent down here now. They have not found anything in the valley of substance.

Jim Cartmell

I have a concern, and I havenít seen all the results from the second one, but the first one over there on the west side of the landfill. They did the thing they identified water flows.

Tom Alcamo

They did some work there. And I havenít seen the report. They did ground penetrating radars. Some IU students went out there and did some trenching. There has not been much effort done in terms of this. And we are mainly focusing here for now.

Jim Cartmell

I think when they did this water study is same as they did other areas. The guy came in and did that area also did the west side. And the pictures I saw have - they laid out the array in one direction so they can determine the flow this way. Then they lay out the array the other direction so they can determine the flow this way. They lay out the array this direction and they have water flows almost the whole west side.

Tom Alcamo

I think you have to be careful translating that data. I have not seen CBS's report in terms of the final.

Jim Cartmell

It's like everywhere, this water flow.

Michael List

This is again, speculative translation. You basically have to ground truthing. Put holes in the ground, measure water levels. Dye trace. They have done dye tracing in the past there.

Tom Alcamo

Can I go through and give the data. I apologize. I know it's hard to see. This one here, 300A and 300 had around 300-400 ppb PCB's in it. And that's at about 50 feet. 00587 here, had 2.3 ppb PCB in the lower zone. That's about 70-80 feet. And then 625 had 2.5 ppb. They are planing on doing a pump test on 387. Starting tomorrow and running it for a day. Iím going to be monitoring a number of wells. NW6, NW7, and in 12's 0025, and 300A. 00300, 00587, and 625. We are going to be doing PCB samples every 30 minutes at the pumping well. We are going to be doing PCB sampling at Illinois Central Spring. With the start, the middle, and the end. It's going to run for around 8 hours. And we are going to be continually conducting ________ and flow measurements at the Spring.

Unknown Man

What do you mean by a pump test?

Tom Alcamo

We are going to put a pump in this well. And then they are going to measure. They are going to pump it into a tank. That's why they are only doing it for one day now. Because they canít do anything with all of this water. There is probably going to be a large one done later. The pump test, they start pumping this at 10 gallons a minute. And they monitor all these other wells. And what's happening within the system. And they see what affect this pumping has done on the water levels within all of these wells. And PCB levels. What's happening down at the Spring. Usually this is done at a much larger scale. And that's what I think the next step will probably be is try to do a week long pump test. Which they would take the water and run it through a treatment - What we would like to do, and I talk to Mike McCann about this, and Iím hoping we can work this out. Because after you treat the water, you donít want to put the water at any of the sinks around the area. Because that will influence what is going on at the Spring. Here's our problem. We have those active railroad tracks right there. What we would like to do, is pump the water for a week. Treat the water. And then put it down in a s_______ pond. And so getting this water across this railroad track logistically is going to be problematic. But that's kind of what could happen in the future along with additional dye tracing studies.

Unknown Man

The point is to identify the actual mood of flow from Lemon Lane to Illinois Central Spring. And you would pump down and create a _______. And the water table would allow you to locate that.

Tom Alcamo

Right. Iím not a hydro person, but there is a lot of curls and stuff they do that tells you what's happening within the _________-. And is it feasible to put a pumping well there. I guess one of the issues _________ is when you have a storm event, the fingers are all connected. And can you catch it all. And that's the problem. It's never been done before.

Unknown Man

But you are doing it now, just as a matter as identifying where things are going?

Tom Alcamo

Yes.

Unknown Man

You were going to treat this water before you are going to (interrupted)

Tom Alcamo

No. This first pump test is only for one day. About 4500 downs. The one after that will be treated and put in sargents pond. Now when that is going to happen, I donít know. Is it going to happen, I donít know.

Unknown man

Is this going to allow you maybe to pump it into tank cars sitting on the railroad track?

Tom Alcamo

It's not really feasible. It would be so many tank cars. I need a big pond or something. But it would be running through carbon, and there would be a discharge of ________, etc. So Iím not worried about that in terms of addressing PCB contamination. Because I can easily treat it with carbon.

David Porter

And the goal of all of this is what?

Tom Alcamo

To see what's going on with this system. How it's connected.

David Porter

Why?

Tom Alcamo

Because maybe there is pumping wells that can be put there.

David Porter

To do what?

Tom Alcamo

To intercept water.

Unknown Man

They are going to collect the water at the landfill because the hope to reduce the amount water that would eventually collect over here at the spring. You have a large drainage basin that basically contributes flow to the spring. And it mingles clean water with potentially contaminated water. So what they want to do is go through the process Tom is describing to basically determine, can we pump __________, reduce the volume of water that needs to be treated. And doing it more effectively.

Tom Alcamo

This is not affecting at all our building of a water treatment plant. This is something that we are encouraging that who knows what's going to happen in the future. But this is normally done when you have normal superfund sites regarding _____ geological study. This is done all the time. It's a little bit different here in terms of Karst. But it makes sense for what they are doing for now. It's not affecting in terms of us building a plant.

Dan Sparks

If you find by doing these things that you really canít identify where this water is going, is that going to influence your excavation at Lemon Lane?

Tom Alcamo

No. I think the excavation and what we purposed to the public will still move forward.

Dan Sparks

It seems to me the rational for doing what you are going to do is that you are planning to be able to identify where this water is going and intercept it and deal with it somehow. But you canít prove where it's going this way, then shouldnít that tell you that you better do something different at Lemon Lane?

Tom Alcamo

I could completely excavate this entire landfill and I would still need water treatment. Because of the amount of material within the ________ cars. And in the conduents.

Unknown Man

When they put all of these borings down. And you go down, you identify cavities. And those cavities are many times clay filled. Some of that information can be down there already. So that's why he is saying that we probably need to keep the water treatment even if we excavate the landfill. (CANíT HEAR HIM VERY WELL - NOT SURE ON EXACT WORDS)

One other thing with the data that he is presenting. Contamination on the eastern part of the land fill isnít much in the borings. Rather contamination is more concentrated on the borings of this western part. Perhaps they are going to focus their study now on this area and try and find the route of migration. Maybe following another route, which we donít know yet. Eventually we know it turns out the Spring.

Tom Alcamo

So this is the first test of many to come.

Unknown Man

The point is to intercept the PCB's leaving the landfill. And perhaps deal with a smaller volume so that treatment be used at a smaller treatment plant.

Tom Alcamo

Right. We have always had a contingent that (and CBS has totally disagreed with us) they may need two treatment plants. We are going forward with our one at Illinois Central Spring. Even in the perfect world, and CBS would say that we can catch all the water leaving here. They would want us to write off this down here. Because they said the water running there would basically be clean. So it's going to pollute itself out if we capture it up here. And we donít agree with that. And we have not agreed with that. And certainly have conveyed that to the judge.

Larime Wilson

They are betting that in the long run they are going to be able to influence you. Because that water treatment plant is only interim. But they are looking for anything that's going to be the cheaper way.

Tom Alcamo

Donít you want them if they can come up with a system that (interrupted)---

Larime Wilson

The point is if they catch it before it is intermingled with clean water then it's --- (interrupted)

Unknown Man

Then they can treat the _______.

Larime Wilson

The closer. I think we need some water treatment plants in a number of directions. Not only there, but on the northeast side too.

Jim Cartmell

There is a bunch of water tracers that havenít been discussed yet. One of which is 1,000 ppm. If they got as much up here as other places. Properties are probably taking a shower with their water. I understand that there is a geological feature. That there is a layer of rock that goes in all directions around Lemon Lane. That's fractured. And water goes through this layer. In other words, it goes every direction. Where I get this information from is Westinghouse's document in discussion of what's occurring at the landfill. The other thing, the highest amount of PCB's that have occurred in a monitoring well. There is a monitoring well that is right here. And people know that it's a water pond here when it rains. And flows under. There is a pond here, and then it gets wet here. Originally Westinghouse discussed that water went here, and went this way. And then went other directions from there. This isnít going to be an excavated area. There is no explanation yet for why there is a 100 ppb PCB's. And the monitoring well is right here on the landfill. Other than there must be PCB's right there. You got 18 ppb here as a high. You got a 100 ppb here. And the other thing that hasnít been looked at in terms of monitoring residential wells or anything else. It has to do with frequency of monitoring. We know, from the results that have already occurred, that within a short period of time results can vary by a huge amount up to 200 ppb out at Neal's. And even more than that at Bennett's. At Lemon Lane is varies by 100 ppb. And it goes from significant amounts to non detect the next time. And that like a month or two later. And at Neal's dump right now there is semi-annual sampling that is proposed. Well, that's not sufficient to indicate a problem. A test could come up nothing and a week later you could have 100 ppb. PCB's appear to be moving through the system of an unknown duration that hasnít been identified yet. And that needs to be identified. And the monitoring that will identify that - in other words, testing that you have done right now, wouldnít indicate a problem through this one. Just to detest that it's non detect doesnít mean that next week you arenít going to have 100 ppb. And you already have results that are similar to that.

Tom Alcamo

There is a loud history for many years and it makes sense to keep doing some annual monitoring.

Jim Cartmell

When monitoring at Neal's dump, the monitoring well, that's right next to the residential well, got a bunch in it. Above the level of concern. But you didnít test the residential well right then.

Tom Alcamo

The residential wells have been sampled in terms of the plans spelled out. Semi-annually. They have come up completely clean, with 80 feet in depth. There is two _________ between ground surface and the bed rock wells. And we feel very comfortable in terms of the plan that is spelled out. We are going to continue to excavate for a minimum of 5 years. And we are going to look at see what happens.

Jim Cartmell

There is a monitoring well next to a residential well. The monitoring well had a bunch of PCB's in it. You didnít test the residential well at the same time.

Tom Alcamo

What was the depth of the monitor well?

Jim Cartmell

I canít remember now. But you didnít test the well.

Tom Alcamo

There is so much data out there. And Iím not going to get into with you. Iím going to move on.

Unknown Woman

Do you know when you are going to do dye tracing on some of the wells?

Tom Alcamo

CBS has not given us any indication of that. We certainly want to see dye tracing. Yes, that's forth coming. Dye tracing and larger pump testing are probably the next two steps.

Larime Wilson

When is this first pump test?

Tom Alcamo

Tomorrow.

Larime Wilson

What time?

Tom Alcamo

It's starting around 8:00 and running for 8 hours.

Another thing that is happening and I have got the contracting in place is Lemon Lane, Illinois Central treat ability study. For the permanent water treatment system. EPA funding approximately 200,000 for a treat ability study at Illinois Central Spring. We are looking at both low flow and high flow events. To try and gain a representative sample. That material then will be shipped to a vendor called U.S. filter in Pittsburgh. Where they will run a number of different technologies from micro filtration, ultra filtration, carbon. Basically that will be the focus to see what they can do.

Unknown Man

This is for a permanent facility.

Tom Alcamo

Right. This has nothing to do with the interim. One of the issues here is logistics. Low flow is not a problem. Obviously we are going to be under a lot of scrutiny from CBS in terms of doing this study. And one of the issues that has come up is when do we sample under high flow. And when do we get a right storm. We may have to wait until next spring to do a high flow. The low flow I would like to do this fall. To at least get some data out there. The high flow, we need to get a representative sample. So, _______ explain in terms of how we are going to do that.

Unknown Man

Okay. We are going to use a little bit of the experience that CBS has gained. Over the last few years they have been monitoring the waterfall at the Spring. They have been monitoring conductivity. Which is this line here. And obviously the monthly flow and the concentration of PCB's.

Tom Alcamo

The other one goes through April. It was like a two inch rain.

Unknown man

So, in that time period, they basically have seen during base flow conditions, in other words when we donít have rainfall event. Conductivity in the Spring is about anywhere between 500-600. Now, when a rainfall comes, we start flushing some the sediments out of the conduents, under the landfill. The sediments start to come in, the concentration of PCB's rises. And then reaches a peak, and then starts to decline. At the same time, the conductivity from the small _______, say 500-600, starts to decline down to about say 300 or so. And then the storm goes away, and the _______ starts to go up again. Back to the levels that it was. So, what we are planning to do is to collect the water that Tom is talking about, through the storm flow. And monitor the weather forecast very closely. And once we have a period of 2-4 days of rainy weather coming, we are going to mobilize our equipment, our resources, and basically do it through the spring. And that translates into a semi truck with two tanks that will be used to collect the water from the Spring, and ship it to US Filters facility. We anticipate to collect this water at the low flow at anywhere between 5-10 gallons per minute at the Spring. In such a way that we donít get sediments that are sitting in the bottom of the Spring. But sediments that are representative of what is coming out of the landfill.

Tom Alcamo

How much gallons?

Unknown Man

The storm flow sample that weíve talked, 2,000 gallons of water. That's the high flow. The sample for the no storm flow, that is one that is going to be around 1,000 gallons.

Tom Alcamo

One of the issues here is we have got to get a representative storm. And we are going to be under a lot of scrutiny from CBS because if we donít, and when we get the report back from the treat ability study, they are going to tear it up.

David Porter

What is a representative storm?

Tom Alcamo

In terms of trying to get the maximum sediment. The maximum PCB concentration. They are going to say we didnít get the maximum storm efforts. It's not representative, therefore the system you put forth isnít going to work for the maximum. So that's why it's important that we are going to hopefully have CBS involved. The city has been very helpful. The county has been willing to help. We may get out there and we made not be at a representative storm. Then we got to demode. Demode the trucks. This is going to be ______ problematic. And it may not happen, at least the storm flow, until the spring.

Dan Sparks

Just from experience, I have had my crops flooded out in December.

Tom Alcamo

Yes. I hope we get some rain. It's been dry.

Michael List

What does conductivity mean?

Unknown Man

It's just the measure of the electrical charge that the water carries. The ions, ______, or ______ ions that there. Salt is a good example.

Tom Alcamo

It seems like there is a representative being the _________ decreases, the high PCB concentration, that's where we got to find the sample.

Unknown Man

As PCB's concentration rises, we are going to try and collect water at the peak. And we are going to collect some water on the decline _______. Trying to take all that into account at the same time. We are going to make sure obviously that all the equipment that we have is tested. And is 75 clean.

Tom Alcamo

In addition, we are going to go out to Neal's. Because we are doing such long analysis. We are doing ppt analysis. And that's not cheap either. And we are going to do some ______ samples at the Neal's plant.

Dan Sparks

You said a truck with a couple of thousand gallon tanks. So you are just co-mingling all the water into one sample. Or are you carrying like hundred gallon samples, taken over at 9:00 - a hundred gallons, 10:00 - a hundred gallons, etc., and sampling it that way? Because I was looking at the graph and was trying to figure out if you put all the water in one tank how you could come up with those points.

Unknown man

The storm water and the non storm water are separate samples.

Dan Sparks

Are you allowed to capture the water tomorrow over 6 hours, for examples? So I can understand your methodology, are you collecting it in 50 gallon barrows and you are going to take - (interrupted)

Tom Alcamo

Tomorrow. Tomorrow is separate from this. We are not collecting. This is a whole separate study. Iím sorry I confused you with this. Tomorrow is just going to be held in a tank. And that will be disposed off site. That has nothing to do with this. There will probably be one tank will this water will be mixed. When they start running the test, they will be taking a lot of water. And running different treatment trains off that water.

Dan Sparks

That line that you are looking at up there has a time line, or doesnít have?

Tom Alcamo

It does have a time line factor.

Dan Sparks

It does. You pore it all into one tank you donít have a time line factor because you donít know when the water was added to the tank, am I correct?

Michael List

You are sampling it periodically as you are putting it into the tank.

Unknown man

The point is to _______ the sample to challenge the filtration technology from the actual sediment that bears the PCB's.

Tom Alcamo

You are right. I know exactly where you are going. You are absolutely correct. There is no way. What you are saying that it seems like more sense that you would have a hundred gallon tank, fill it in there at times zero. Another hundred gallon tank at one minute - fill it like that. The problem is that what is really what's happening. Were taking the water that is going to be most likely in a storm basin before it gets treated.

David Porter

The purpose of this, again, is what?

Tom Alcamo

To look at different treatment technologies. To see how long we can get in terms of discharge criteria. Look at cost, look at technology that are out there. Like M______ filtration, ultra filtration, things of that nature, for occurrences. To see what's out there.

David Porter

To challenge a filtration system, take a shovel full of gup out of one of these pipes and run it through it.

Unknown Man

They want the actual stuff that has the PCB's contained in it. And trained in it. That is emerging from Illinois Central Spring. Because that is where the plant will be sited.

David Porter

Is that where the plant will be sited?

Tom Alcamo

Our plant will be. In terms that we are making that to be expandable.

David Porter

Which? The interim plant.

Tom Alcamo

Yes.

David Porter

But you are talking about spending $200,000 on a permanent plant study, right?

Tom Alcamo

Right. Because what weíve done with this interim approach is that after we give a certain time frame, we are looking at probably about three years, that we have to make another decision in terms of what the final water treatment system is going to be. And this data is going to be used to help us determine what the final water treatment system is going to be. The interim approach is either build our system or build CBS's system and wait a few years. And we felt that we could make our system work more efficiently. To be expandable. And that in the long run (interrupted) -

David Porter

Once you build your system, you are going to have a holding pond. Wonít the water in the holding pond be representative of what you have to treat. And shouldnít that be the water you send (interrupted) -

Tom Alcamo

I wonít have that thing operating until the end of next year. It makes no sense for us to start getting data now.

Unknown Man

He is collecting the data now so when the interim plan goes into place that perhaps he can be expanded to include the additional ______ that are needed there to remove PCB's at the very low level. So, you are talking about micro filtration. We are going to be testing in addition to the micro filtration, ultra filtration, and carbon. We are going to be testing chemical addition as well. Because when you add certain chemicals to the sediments, you (interrupted) -

Tom Alcamo

To clarify, we are going to build as large a possible pond in that location, as possible. Whatever size we can get there, that's what we are building.

Larime Wilson

Are you saying it could be bigger than that - inside that triangle?

Tom Alcamo

We are going to try. Maybe. In terms of depth. I donít know how we are going to do it yet.

Larime Wilson

Sloped like that?

Tom Alcamo

All I can tell you what now is that we need to make it as big as we can.

Larime Wilson

What about this point that was brought out at the last meeting, a week ago, that the duck study on the lagoons on Winston Thomas? We are basically building another lagoon.

Tom Alcamo

Right. But I have already been discussing with Dan Sparks. I canít say what we are going to do yet, but I can say that we are concerned about that. I donít know where we are going with it yet.

Dan Sparks

They could get a baseline if they took some studies now. They would know if the plant was very effective. Because if they can get a high flow rating now, and it comes in at X, they need to be able to tell us that this new plant they are putting in is going to come out as .2 X is the affluent coming out.

Tom Alcamo

You know, you make a valid point.

David Porter

I think you are wasting our money.

Tom Alcamo

I think that you are correct. And if it got to a point that we needed to do a sample out of that pond, then we would do that. There is so much problems with the Judge and with CBS in terms of over the permanent water treatment system. Yes, I think we could do that. But I need this data. And I need it now. We hare more arguments ahead of us. This battle is going to be going on for a number of years. And the more data I have the better off Iím going to be to argue for other points. But you make a valid point. I donít deny it. But normally, in terms of us getting data now, I need data now.

Larime Wilson

Also, last month they said they couldnít treat down to a level like 1 to 10 ppt. They were discharging it (interrupted)........

Unknown man

Part of the reason for the study is to show that.

Larime Wilson

That's what Iím explaining to David.

Tom Alcamo

Precipitation somehow got into that storage basin. I donít know how. Going through sample _____ and carbon. We are looking between .1 and .3 ppb discharge. That's what we think we can make. It's not acceptable, in terms of the long term approach. And we need to look at other technologies. I need all the canon fire I can get right now.

Unknown Man

And the very finest particles, which are the ones that you are going to have to worry about, will they be present water sample removed this way, or after it's in a month holding base. So I think it's a valid test.

Tom Alcamo

You are right. I donít deny it. I mean, if I had more time. But I donít have time. I need data now. I have to keep fighting.

David Porter

The decisions are made the interim plan is going to run 3 to 5 years.

Tom Alcamo

Three.

David Porter

Okay, 3 years. We got three years.

Tom Alcamo

This isnít going to happen over night in terms of us trying to stand an negotiated term of sediment removal in Clear Creek. In terms of the permit system. We have got to start negotiating as soon as we get this data back.

David Porter

You donít even know if this is the only discharge point. You are spending 10% of the areas budget on one treatment plant. And I assume that exactly the same problems that apply to Lemon Lane apply to Neal's landfill.

Tom Alcamo

You are right. Well, Neal's landfill is worse.

David Porter

Well then we have another $2 million to spend at Neal's.

Tom Alcamo

I donít know.

Jim Cartmell

I have a question. When you do all this storm water monitoring at ICC Springs. You know that most of the PCB's move during the storm water events. How come you donít do residential monitoring or monitoring of these other springs during storm water events?

Tom Alcamo

We certainly will consider that. I need to look at that. It's a valid point.

Jim Cartmell

Specific things. When the dye trace - here's Well's - Northeast of Lemon Lane, got big numbers in dye trace.

Unknown man

It's also true that PCB's were found in the sediments right after the pulses of ______.

Jim Cartmell

They didnít test for PCB's when they had a big amount of dye going through there. In other places, the big amount of PCB's are gone. They tested after the storm event was over. When you want to test them is when the pulse is moving through. Not after you know it has moved through.

Tom Alcamo

We will certainly have a monitoring program and weíll discuss.

Jim Cartmell

CBS at that meeting stated that the only place that has been characterized is the ICC Springs. And they just didnít know enough about them. Prior to 1995 they didnít know enough about ICC Springs to say that PCB's were coming out of there. That's certainly true of every place else. They havenít done enough to characterize any place at this point except ICC Springs.

Tom Alcamo

Pictures of fish advisory signs in Clear Creek, the County was kind enough to put signs up. I donít know what is going on at Richland Creek, I need to look. Certainly there is 5 locations. I have a map in terms of the locations of the signs.

Larime Wilson

About Lemon Lane. You said you would look into air monitoring there.

Tom Alcamo

I have no plans to do air monitoring there. I donít have it in my budget.

Larime Wilson

You said you would take it up with your higher ups.

Tom Alcamo

I did. We donít have the money. I have allotted funds. And I have to try and manage those funds in the most affective way that is going to help me in terms of keeping these projects moving. I cannot say that during the building of the treatment plant that we wonít monitor the air.

Dan Sparks

When you sit up your plan and you have your little lagoons sitting there, will you have a way of sampling to make sure you are not vulitizing off your lagoon?

Tom Alcamo

Yes. I donít know how we are going to deal with that yet, but that is an issue. And we will be dealing with it. You are asking me questions that I have no answers yet.

Lemon Lane. Parameter sampling around the landfill. I have proposed to my management. I havenít hear back yet. That we are going to do parameter sampling around the outside of Lemon Lane. I am considering dyoxen sampling. I have not made a determination on that. We are just on the initial discussions of it. We are going to approach CBS with it. And if CBS is not willing to do it, then we will probably end up doing some additional parameter sampling. I donít know the details. Iíll keep you updated on that.

David Porter

Where is it that you are trying to move this process to?

Tom Alcamo

I donít know. I am trying to move it to we get to a point where there is no more releases of PCB's in Bloomington. Do I think I am going to get all the PCB's out of Bloomington? No. Iím trying to get it to a point where the main consent decree sites are protected. I think people are being exposed to PCB's. I think PCB's are bad. And we need to stop people from being exposed to them.

Dan Sparks

I just want to share something. I donít know if you talked to that citizen the last meeting, but they were going to move here. And they had just come from Sante Faye. And they found out that it was saturated with nuclear waste. And they came here and wondered what the environmental situation was here, and they are not going to settle here.

Tom Alcamo

I know. I feel bad. This problem has been here for many years. I have to work within the constraints of my system. I am sorry. I truly believe that PCB's are bad. I think it sucks that they have been dumped in this community. And Iím not here to convey to you that I am going to make this problem go away. We are going to argue in terms of when we get to the big sites. I donít want people to be exposed to this stuff anymore. I think we need to deal with sediment. People are being exposed in both Richland and Clear Creek. The fish.

Larime Wilson

Air. Which we wonít even sample.

Tom Alcamo

I have limited budgets. And I have to focus on - In a perfect world I would agree with you.

Tom Alcamo

David, where do you think these projects to go? I have talked to you in depth privately. Be honest with me. Do you think I am in the wrong direction.

David Porter

I worry when I feel you are trying to stand too quickly to some unknown destination.

Tom Alcamo

_______ the Judge.

David Porter

The Judge can breath down his neck all he wants, but that is not going to make it possible to move more mass than we can find trucks to move. It's not going to make the rain fall at a convenient time. Or anything else. And the Judge has just got to get over it if he has a "God" complex. There are real world realities that we ought to try and incorporate into it. As Jim pointed out, if you are going to go look for stuff after the leaves fall it's probably not the most timely. Three feet of snow would be another time not to go.

Tom Alcamo

I actually went out to Bennett's dump. I already talked to _____ in terms of some approaches we may take. I went out to John Foster today at Bennetts dump. He was very helpful. Not so much for other areas. But what happened in that site. In terms of what he say. Iím not opposed to going out whenever. I think I do need to go out in the Spring. I think possibly in some other areas we are going to do some additional sampling. I can do some screening techniques that may allow me to do a lot more sampling. Iím not opposed to that. Iíve been in this project less than a year. You guys have been here 15-20 years. You more about what has happened in the past than I do. I need to learn. I am not denying that. But he's right. If you think he is going to go out there and see compacitors sticking out of the ground, he's not going to see it.

Jim Cartmell

I have seen it. Not at Bennett's, but other places.

Tom Alcamo

Okay. But let's talk Bennett's. Please. I would go out with you whenever you want to go. I have not problem walking that area with you. And if we need to take some samples that is justified, then let's go for it.

Larime Wilson

This is a site assessment report done by Sieko. And it was done at the request of ______. When they were planning to put the highway extension, which they are still going to put through right there, but they were planning to make 46 underpass 37. Which is right through Neal hole quarries. And they are not going to do that anymore. But they are going to send it through that area. And they did a pretty good site assessment report on it. And it includes a testimony of a salvager who is very familiar with the Bennett's area. And it list his name and how to contact him. He walked all around out there. And I would like you to go out there with him. Because he can show you.

Tom Alcamo

His name was brought up by John Foster.

Larime Wilson

If you can this other road that parallels Hunter. It could not have been that many years ago.

(Other discussion, canít hear very clear)

Tom Alcamo

I think if I can do some _____ _____ tests, which are screening tool, out there, I can do a number of samples. Which is going to be cost effective for my budget. Which is going to allow me to do more areas. And I have no problem with sampling. The problem is that there is a lot of here say. And I canít put a sample every 5 inches out there.

Larime Wilson

Well, they did pretty good with that here say. ____________ (canít hear) I saw Aerial maps of what people had said. Because that was where there was road access to get there.

Jim Cartmell

Steve Hacker reported that later became the fence side east of the dump. He reported the contamination south of the dump.

Tom Alcamo

Dennis Williamson has a great amount of history. He walked the site. He talked to the people who salvaged compacitors.

Larime Wilson

In that report, I also highlighted the Aerial photograph they say they have. Because the ones that John Langley says are positive, it's incomplete. He's missing ones.

Tom Alcamo

Iíll look at that. Bennett's dump essentially, the _____ have been signed for that. And we are going forward with that. I think hopefully if we get everything worked out, work will start sometime early next year.

Neal's landfill excavation: (interrupted)

Jim Cartmell

I have another one about Lemon Lane. This is a site report that said this is a compacitor area. At the north side of the fence. Where they havenít done anything. There is some other documents that talk about it too. Like they were talking about moving the fence.

Tom Alcamo

What donít you and I get some plan together for initial sampling locations.

Jim Cartmell

These people right here would know. You would have to ask them. Where the compacitor is at the north side of the fence. They never told me. They know, the people that did this. And there's the whole north side of the fence.

Dan Sparks

Where is that Jim. Is it local people?

Jim Cartmell

It's EPA. Peggy Pierce, Mary Gay, John McFee, Mike Strimbow, and Russ D______. It says here Dick Powell was there. Sally Mass was there.

And that goes along with the other stuff about stuff that was dump at the North side of the dump.

Tom Alcamo

Iíll get with Dick. Weíre talking about Lemon Lane?

Jim Cartmell

Yes. And at Bennett's too! That satellite area along the road, there is no signs up. And I canít figure out at all of these sites. The worse sign we get, like at Bennett's, is ëdanger, no unauthorized personnelí. Big deal.

Tom Alcamo

What do you want?

Jim Cartmell

A sign that use to be up at Bennett's said there was PCB contamination. It said the words PCB's. There has been struggle with the signs and what the signs say. There has been efforts to not get the signs to say PCB on them. Not in a meaningful way to identify for children, or other people.

Tom Alcamo

People who are involved in the operation of that quarry know that it is a hazards sewage site. And certainly at the end of this, if we need to put signs up, we will do that. Right now putting a sign up at Bennett's is not a top priority. I have got so many hours in the day.

Jim Cartmell

There is others. Like Winston Thomas. You could get one up there.

Dan Sparks

Tom, how are you coming in terms of your percentage on this now? At Neal's?

Tom Alcamo

We are looking at probably in the neighborhood of 60-70%. It's somewhere in that range, but they are still chasing contamination.

Dan Sparks

Are you going to backfill the hole?

Tom Alcamo

Yes.

Dan Sparks

Where are you going to get your fill?

Tom Alcamo

Mrs. White, in the front of her yard. It's a big mound that she doesnít want anymore. We will sample that and use part of that. Also a farmer has offered to provided backfill. And weíll do sampling on that as well.

Jim Cartmell

It looks like there is some recent excavations out at Bennett's. I was wondering if anybody was there. There is a sign there that says "Danger, contaminated water". And it looks like they have been pumping a lot of water out of that quarry.

Tom Alcamo

Yes. They pump that quarry.

Jim Cartmell

What happens to the water?

Tom Alcamo

It went into Stout's Creek.

Jim Cartmell

So, there is a sign that says about the contaminated water.

Tom Alcamo

Not in the quarry.

Jim Cartmell

Yes. Right next to it.

Tom Alcamo

I didnít know about it. They didnít even notify us. I got a call from Dennis Williamson. We then sent a letter to the quarry saying that if you do any activity out there like that that affects in any way the site, you are going to be considered a PRP. So, you are right.

Jim Cartmell

So it's __________ to twenty feet lower than both Bennett's and the satellite area.

Tom Alcamo

They are going to quarry that area.

Jim Cartmell

I suggest you test that water. It's twenty feet lower than the level at Bennett's.

Tom Alcamo

That's why they pumped it out. They are going to quarry it.

Jim Cartmell

it's lower than the level at Stout's Creek. The other thing is that there are people that goes out to Bennett's. That Mill right there. They work there every day. So what that means is that it's not a low occupancy area.

Tom Alcamo

I know.

Jim Cartmell

So what that means is that it's not a low occupancy area.

Tom Alcamo

That is a commercial area.

Jim Cartmell

That's areas that people donít go to that get the low standard.

Tom Alcamo

I disagree with that. Look at 761 (interrupted)

Jim Cartmell

I have.

Tom Alcamo

What's it say. In terms of low compared hours to low and high per year?

Jim Cartmell

Compare the hours?

Tom Alcamo

Yes. They say how many hours you are there.

Jim Cartmell

Somebody that is there all day, every day, and that is not considered high occupancy?

Tom Alcamo

No. That's how they make a determination. I view that as an industrial area. Where the deed research is on the property. Certainly will not be able to be developed to residential.

Jim Cartmell

I will bring a transparency next time.

Tom Alcamo

You do what you need to do. I will certainly listen to you. You put out a lot of information. I donít doubt that.

Jim Cartmell

Let's talk about risk assessment. Do you have any of those for any sites?

Tom Alcamo

We basically have been using 761.61.

Jim Cartmell

There is a point in the administrative record that says risk assessment - it's not here yet, it might be later.

Tom Alcamo

No. Not for these sites. We used a combination of - basically 761.61, or Mel Clark. Mel Clark is one of the most dedicated individuals. And he refused to work on these projects a number of years ago. Because he said it's a waste of time. Nothing is happening. I am very fortunate to have him. He's very dedicated. And I trust him in terms of providing guidance to me in terms of risk assessment. 761.61, you look at it. It came out the end of June of this year. If you donít like it, you change it. That is what weíre filing.

Neal's: We are still far apart at excavation at Neal's. I donít know whether that is going to happen. That we are going to come to some type of decision. The Judge thinks that it ought to be capped. I would like to reduce the size of Neal's landfill as much as possible. It's 18 acres right now. My thoughts would be to get it below 10 acres somehow. There is cap. Certainly there is others that John Foster pointed out that when you walk in the gate that could be contaminated that we will investigate. I already went to the site with John Foster and he provided a lot of valuable information. Because he was there in terms of the interim proposal. And provided information. And said you need to look here. And here is where some compacitors are, and here is where we saw some stuff. And we will be doing that. He indicated to me that he never saw anything outside of the fence line at that site. We walked the area. That is the bases Iím using. If we do some sampling and it looks like it's leaving the site, I will chase it. Right now I have not intention, as of now, to do any sampling outside that site.

Dan Sparks

When you start to dig an area would your plan be to try and take everything or would you try and leave the cars, etc.

Tom Alcamo

We have no intention of taking any of that out.

Dan Sparks

So you would be trying to work around just the soil?

Tom Alcamo

Or we would be moving cars. The worst area is the southeast corner of that site where the man, and I donít know why he did it, filled up that whole stream valley and prevented the natural flow of water. And that area has to be excavated straight down to the native soil to completely be clean. So, in addition, right now, as I did with Lemon Lane, Iíve got ______________ doing an alternatives evaluation for water treatment at Neal's landfill. We have already been out there looking at storage areas and things of that nature. It's still in its early development. I donít feel the system at Neal's is accurate. Even in the interim. CBS is fighting hard on this issue. They really do not want to expand plant at Neal's landfill. We think that it needed to be expanded. At least from an interim perspective. And then eventually for a permanent system. I canít tell you where we are going with that yet.

David Porter

What do we know about the hydrology of the land?

Tom Alcamo

Not enough. I would like to see them go out there and do this geophysical study at Neal's. All I know is the water at Lemon Lane is a lot. At Neal's is through the roof. 60,000 gallons a minute is not unusual out there. That's a lot of water. I think that sediment and conduents branch in Richland Creek need to be excavated. We have problems there. And that's going to be a huge fight. I could possibly see us litigating that. And Clear Creek. The schedule is a big issue. And Iíve heard from a number of people here that they would prefer to have the water treatment plant up and running before Lemon Lane is going to be excavated. That's something that we will take into consideration. I think we could do something at Lemon Lane without having it up and running. But what it does is make us go to the Judge and extend the deadline. And we may have to do that. I donít know where we are going with schedule. Personally, I would like to wait for a year, sometime in the construction season, for the year 2000. And deal with next year finish Winston Thomas, finish Bennett's. And at least get the excavation done for Neal's landfill. Neal's landfill is such a large site. And the most problematic site by far, that it's maybe 2 construction seasons to deal with Neal's. And possibly do Lemon Lane in the year 2000. I donít know where this is going. The lawyers have just started discussions on the issues. And we have a meeting with Judge Foster on the 16th. And that will probably be one of the items that comes up. Iím very concerned from my resources of being able to keep an eye out on all of these sites. Iím probably going to need 2 people at Lemon Lane along. Because I will be doing a number of samples within the excavation area separate. And that splits everything. But additional sampling on my own, probably in the neighborhood of 200 at least. Within Lemon Lane's excavation that we will be proposing. If that becomes a final remedy. I have resource issues in terms of keeping people at all of these sites. I have got issues with trucks. CBS, can we get enough trucks to move this stuff. And it's just keeping track of all of these things. I am very concerned. I donít know if I can do it. I have got to make an effort. Iím hoping that we could get Lemon Lane delayed until 2000.

Unknown Man

Doesnít the contractor do a lot of that stuff?

Tom Alcamo

Yes. Iíve got two people at Lemon Lane. Probably two at Neal's. One at Winston Thomas, at least. One at Bennett's. I have got people all over the place. I have got limited funds, and that concerns me. As much as you guys think we have dropped the ball on a number of issues, in the next two years we will be spending in the neighborhood of probably $4 million. Depending on what happens to Neal's water treatment.

David Porter

Are you getting $4 million worth of value?

Tom Alcamo

Yes. I am very happy with these guys. If you look at the administrative record, in the library, of the alternatives report for the water treatment plant, I think they have good quality. They have got the process engineers I need. They have got people that have experience. And I need that. And I am very happy with the work. In addition, I will be getting other RPM's and OSC's assigned to this. They understand the deadlines. I need to keep eyeing this stuff. That's my job. And I am responsible. But I may need another project manager assigned to these sites. Just like I am probably going to get somebody else assigned for the other sites issue. Because I just donít have the time to focus a lot of effort on that.

David Porter

If we are spending $2 million on a water treatment plant that only cleans up 160 pounds of PCB's in a year, and we could go out and dig up a couple of tons per a few hundred thousand dollars, wouldnít it be better to dig up a few tons than to chase (interrupted)

Tom Alcamo

We will be digging up a few tons.

Unknown Man

Those few tons arenít as mobile.

Tom Alcamo

I have people fishing in Clear Creek. I have kids playing in it.

PCB's are bad. And we need to deal with this problem.

David Porter

I agree with you. I am asking if we put our money, will we get our biggest bang for the buck? Is that what we are doing or are we again chasing after politically correct ______.

Tom Alcamo

I totally disagree with you on that. The biggest thing is trying to prevent people from getting exposed to this stuff. And people are getting exposed to it. If there is a hot spot in the middle of a landfill and no one is getting exposed to that. But if you are talking about in Clear Creek, where people are wading in that, fishing, and hanging out in that, that is a problem.

David Porter

But with that rational then we really need to be out chasing after all of the sludge from Winston Thomas.

Tom Alcamo

Iím going to try. Give me a chance.

Dan Sparks

Just from another perspective, there was a study done by Doctor Jim Shaffer. And he couldnít understand why kids were getting so sick. And he went and talked to one of his mentors. One of his old buddies that helped him through medical school. And he said that it sounds like those kids are being poisoned. And this was the group of kids that were growing up around Lemon Lane. And it finally clicked as to what was going on. Now Jim Shaffer has gone to his reward, but we have his deposition to that effect. And that's the problem. We have kids that were born, raised, and died on Lemon Lane from Cancer. From playing in that stuff. So I think whatever process you can do as confined and removed as what we can deal with, because it's not a perfect world. And we understand that. And we are not going to get every molecule. And we have no way to destroy it. What we are trying to do is to figure out who else's rug to put it under.

Tom Alcamo

Be prepared. We have a huge battle in the future in terms of sediment. This will be litigated. I donít see us coming to any conclusion on that. And a lot of it has to do with legal issues that I donít even want to think about. That's why when you look at the proposals for all of these sites. Weíve carved out permanent water treatment, and settlement removal, excluding Stout's Creek, from the decision. So there is going to have to be other decisions made on that. Iím not going to risk us going to court right now on sediment while I have a possibility of getting some PCB's from Lemon Lane out of this town. And get the interim plant built. You need to read the status report that CBS sent to the court on our water treatment system. And they basically called it a white elephant.

Larime Wilson

I would like to have it sent to the Library first. Sending it to COPRA to put on the web is a slower process.

Tom Alcamo

Okay. I will start first sending it to the Library. The only data that you do not have is the report that Costess did in terms of Neal's landfill sampling. The report is draft until we work out what we are going to do out there. All the data that you guys have, there is nothing new. I am not here to hide anything.

Jim Cartmell

There is three documents that I asked you for I still havenít gotten. The first one was everything that was sent to the court for the first amendment to the consent decree. And what we got was the responsive summary without any of the attachments. We didnít get anything else.

Tom Alcamo

I will do that. Iíll write this down.

Jim Cartmell

I didnít ask this previously, but everything that was sent to the Judge.

Tom Alcamo

If I can.

Jim Cartmell

I asked for this several years ago. And when you came I asked you. Maybe you forgotten. Everything that showed about where material was dumped at Lemon Lane. And what was dumped.

Tom Alcamo

The main report that I know of that I looked at is the report that Powell put together. I will look back at every document I have in terms of that. In terms of where stuff was dumped.

Jim Cartmell

When I originally asked for it for the samples I needed in 1996, they said they would supply that to me. I would like a list that even comprised the sampling plan. Because it was like eight different documents. And they were all amended at different times. And it wasnít even ever clearly identified what it was that it consisted of. The hydrological study for Lemon Lane. We got the three dye trace studies. But we didnít get anything else. And the same for Neal's. We just got the one dye trace study, but nothing else.

Tom Alcamo

How I will probably do this. And this may be the best approach, is when you have a disagreement in terms of what information is depository and what is administrative record. Administrative records need to be put together when we make a decision. You are correct. The information depository has not been kept to date.

Jim Cartmell

And there is a difference between administrative record and administrative file too.

Tom Alcamo

Right. The administrative record I need to have together. And you have seen it at sites. You have went there and saw the action memo, administrative record, of Neal's dump, Bennett's dump. That's the specific documents that are listed that you reviewed for public comments. But in addition, that has to be in place before we do a decision. The information depository, which I admit EPA has not done the best of job, which I admit I at fault on that. I will do a better job at that. When I send stuff to the information depository, Iíll send out an email of the document I have sent. Iíll send it to Lou. Give me a couple of weeks. I have a couple of reports that was done at the sludge drying beds. And trickling filter that I have not reviewed yet. Iíll get to that in a couple of months. And youíll get the data. I would like to sit down with you and talk further. I have to depend a lot on the City. It is their property. They have done a lot of sampling. I depend a lot on EarthTec. I donít want walk away from this.

Jim Cartmell

In the ______ on Winston Thomas there is a discussion about whether PCB's were burned out there or not. And if they were then you need to do some characterizations for dioxens, and _____. And it wasnít known at that time whether any PCB's had been burned. But it turns out they were. They burned the grits. And stuff like that.

Tom Alcamo

I do think around Lemon Lane we need to look at some dyoxen sampling. I canít say it is going to happen or not. Mil Clark was going to be here tonight, but he is ill. He has got all this information on risk. EPA is comfortable about what is going on. He thinks that the PCB dioxen _____ issue is something that may happen in the future. There is not policy on it. Air chloride analysis included congener 77, 126 (probably the worse one), EPA has no policy on that. EPA comes out with _____. Uses EPA method 8082, which is air chloride analysis. That could happen in the future. But right now I am dealing with what I have to deal with.

Iím done.

Go ahead Jim.

Jim Cartmell

This is Neal's. This is a compacitor installation survey that they did in 1982. They looked at stuff on the surface. And some of these are right - if you put this overlay with the map - the fence goes right across this number 2 here.

Tom Alcamo

I basically talked to John Foster about that in depth. And he told me when he was there he put in the fence. And there was nothing on the outskirts of that fence.

Jim Cartmell

So this was done for the fence was put it. So somebody picked up the visible means and just threw it inside. Because that happened at Lemon Lane.

Tom Alcamo

I will walk that area.

Jim Cartmell

I am arguing for testing outside of the fence. Because apparently at Lemon Lane and here it appears there may have been material placed outside the fence. But if like I have a roll of compacitors laying on the surface, and I pick it up and throw it inside the fence. That doesnít put the PCB's inside the fence.

Tom Alcamo

I will consider doing some amino acid sampling. It is a good screening test.

Jim Cartmell

Can you do the one that measures dyoxen like activity. It's the enzyme one.

Tom Alcamo

Iíll look into it.

Dan Sparks

We have been given a tag grant to work with on Lemon Lane. What if you were to take a few thousand of that and buy some test kits and go around the outside with it?

Tom Alcamo

I would have to look. I think it would be outside your scope. It doesnít mean that we canít try and change the scope. Iím trying to get the ________ to use some of the tag grant money to put together a data base for these other sites. That's my first approach. We need to work with the grants coordinator, Sue Call, and find out.

Jim Cartmell

Back to records. There is a difference between administrative record and administrative file. The difference is the record is the complete thing. The file is as it's built. This EPA document here says that a file is suppose to be maintain. In other words, you donít wait until you make a decision and just hand the completed thing. And the purpose for maintaining the administrative file is so that the public can have an opportunity to comment constructively about the site. In other words, if you donít give us the information until you have already made the decision, we canít comment constructively on the site.

Tom Alcamo

I donít know if there is many sites in the whole country where the project manager comes down every four to six weeks and meets with you to discuss sites.

Jim Cartmell

The CIC and the administrative file are two different things.

Tom Alcamo

No, but believe me. The people that are the most concerned about the administrative record are at the CIC.

Larime Wilson

I beg to differ.

Tom Alcamo

I agree to you that we have done a poor job in terms of notifying you. I say this, the information is available for Lemon Lane. There is nothing out there that you donít know. You have the data. You canít accuse me of hiding back anything. Neal's landfill stuff, you have had all the data. The only thing you havenít seen is the reports where there is ____ cross sections drawn and stuff because it is a draft. But the sampling data at Neal's landfill you have seen. You have had it for months. And I even had my intern of mine do pretty little pictures and stuff.

Larime Wilson

We had the Lemon Lane excavation plan in 1996 before the sampling was ever even made up. Hopkins sat right here and printed it all out. Exactly where it was going to be. And that's true. And you have no way to know because you werenít here.

Tom Alcamo

You can say that for the record. I know what the data shows in terms of what we are going to propose. And certainly we will listen to you. You take for granted that we are not doing any sampling within the landfill itself. We are doing a lot of sampling within the landfill up in the excavation area. And you say it continues from out, everywhere around the site, we are going to see it. And we are going to sample it. And then we are going to have to keep excavating. I think you conveniently forget that.

Larime Wilson

What you are talking about non contiguous areas of known and documented activity that have not ever been sampled.

Jim Cartmell

You have one non contiguous area at Lemon Lane already. That is planned to be excavated. There is no reason there canít be others.

Tom Alcamo

Iím not conveying to anyone here that there is not going to be hot areas within the landfills. It's about being exposed to the material. It's about moving the contaminated material we know about. And it's about preventing people to being exposed to PCB's in the water.

David Porter

Just right now, that ton you left behind is going to come out someday?

Tom Alcamo

I donít agree to that.

David Porter

You think it is geologically stable?

Tom Alcamo

By that it would be complete look at the cap. The cap would have to be redone. Let's say thirty years from now, the remedy is going to be looked at. Maybe there is going to be this technology that is going to come out that's going to make it worthwhile.

David Porter

Well, let's hope so.

Tom Alcamo

Well, these compounds were not developed to be easily broken down. You know chemistry.

David Porter

I know. And if we had spent more time doing research and less doing lawyers we would be further along I am sure.

Jim Cartmell

The other thing I would like to clarify all information. You have supplied to us everything that you have done since you came. But we donít have what was done before you came. That may contradict, like has been shown numerous times, what is being cleaned right now. In other words, previously information previous to when you came hasnít been supplied all the way.

Tom Alcamo

I will copy. You will have the whole record. You want me to send boxes and boxes of data to go through, I have no problem with it.

Jim Cartmell

The way they sent it to us first, it looked like they took their file, copied it, dumped it in a big pile, and sent it to us.

Tom Alcamo

Why donít you come up to Chicago and you can go through it.

Dan Sparks

I guarantee you, it's real exciting. Because, I wonít say who, told us that the decision about the remedy was at. Well, it wasnít at the court, it wasnít at the library. It was in the Judges files in Indianapolis. So a bunch of us went up there and went through the basement of the federal court house. Page by page.

Tom Alcamo

Was that when the incinerator was going?

Dan Sparks

And it was real exciting reading. And it wasnít there either. So I just want you to know that the reason that the community has questions is that it's about what's was going on before you got here.

Tom Alcamo

There was a lot of deals done when the incinerator was happening. You guys stopped the incinerator, but EPA could have overturned easily. Because it was unconstitutional that Indiana legislature. Dan Hopkins went to our management and said weíre crazy if we do it. Went to headquarters and said what do you guys think, this is crazy, and stopped it. As much as you poo poo Dan Hopkins, and believe me, I have had to deal with Dan's files. I spent hours and hours dealing with them. He did keep EPA from overturning the legislature.

Jim Cartmell

Iím not surprised of that. It's a government up by for the people. People said they donít want the thing. EPA gave it to us. What's unconstitutional was EPA. We circulated a petition, under the prevision of the Indiana Constitution, that says the people can at all times have a right to construct their government. More people signed our petition against the consent decree, then voted for the major who signed it. Now what that means is that she used served democracy. We should have called the marines in here to restore it. They should go after CBS. CBS essentially used served democracy. And you are telling me that EPA was planning on doing it too.

Tom Alcamo

Well, they could have.

Jim Cartmell

Yes, they could have. They could have gone against the will of the people.

Dan Sparks

No responsibility of the citizens. You respond to congress. You donít respond to the citizens.

Jim Cartmell

Getting back to records. EPA has stated that the administrative record was supplied here already. It wasnít.

Tom Alcamo

The decisions I have done, has been supplied.

Jim Cartmell

There was a whole bunch of decisions that were done before you came here. That EPA claimed there was an administrative record for. I would still like to see that administrative record.

Dan Sparks

Perhaps maybe when you and Larime and myself can come to the office and check with Mike Baker. And maybe we can drive up there and dig through it, if it's alright with him. We can take a portable copier so that we are not using the tax payer money to make copies. We will use our private money, after tax dollars, and weíll make copies of what we think relevant.

Tom Alcamo

You are right. In terms of all the data in the library, it's not. But what I think of administrative record, I think it's there. In terms of decisions I have made.

Dan Sparks

I think what we have to look at is the records that are being impacting what is being done today. And he's got what is in the process, the paperwork is there.

Jim Cartmell

No, it's not. It gets the stuff like old dye trace stuff. Old well testing. Where it shows that ground water was going to other places that they were ignoring. And that kind of stuff. Stuff they did before he came here. Because now they already agree they claim it only goes one place. But there is previous stuff they did that it shows it is going to a bunch of different places and is a problem.

Tom Alcamo

I made a commitment to do some additional sampling at a number of locations. It probably wonít happen until the spring. I will do it. I think we need to do another dye tracing study at Lemon Lane soon.

Jim Cartmell

What I was talking about was air plants, some fencing, and dyoxen like PCB's.

Tom Alcamo

Fencing at Winston Thomas?

Jim Cartmell

Yes. And other places.

Tom Alcamo

Winston Thomas they fixed the fence. Are you talking about the holes they cut in it? They fixed it.

Jim Cartmell

The existing fencing at Winston Thomas has never been in this condition ever since 1973. The last time I was out there you could still step over the fence. The same location has been in that state since I first saw it, which was more than 15 years ago. And it is still that way.

Tom Alcamo

I donít know. I may have to go out there with you. I view that almost as a city responsibility. And I need to talk to them about it.

Jim Cartmell

Here's what Westinghouse says: Westinghouse shall continue to maintain existing warning signs in security fencing at the site. Westinghouse has always met these applications and continue to do so.

Tom Alcamo

Maybe they are defining the site around the Te_____ lagoon.

Jim Cartmell

Westinghouse has never done this. First they claim that something exist that doesnít exist. Then they claim that they always maintained it in a state that it's never existed.

Tom Alcamo

I think it's the City. I will check on this.

Jim Cartmell

Here is what the City said. "We disagree that human exposure are severely restricted by current site control. The security fencing would have to be substantially upgraded." That was their comments.

Tom Alcamo

I will have to go out and check it.

Jim Cartmell

When EPA issued their clean up in 1997, they said here's the threats. One of which was the fencing poses little _______ to human trespassers. It was a time critical action. And time critical was because this fence was in bad shape. The fence has been the same shape for fifteen years. But suddenly it's time critical and they have to deal with it. And they issued a thing that said fix it. This thing didnít fix the fence.

Tom Alcamo

Okay. You made your point.

Jim Cartmell

This is you in 1998.

Tom Alcamo

I went to them and said the fence is down, fix it. And they said they fixed it.

Jim Cartmell

(canít hear). And then again, your order didnít fix the fence.

Michael List

What is your point?

Jim Cartmell

This is a danger. EPA admits its a danger and nobody does anything about it. This is only things that other people can verify themselves. In other words, anybody can see if a fence is up or down.

Michael List

EPA has intentions to get the fence put up. They donít say the fence is up.

Jim Cartmell

No. Dan Hopkins did.

Michael List

The continuous monitoring of things like fences is probably something that the City should be doing since that is City property.

Jim Cartmell

We are talking about the same hole in the same place for fifteen years.

Plants. I said plants are a problem. The largest amount that is in any biological sample of PCB's in Monroe County is in a plant. Not a fish. And I am going to bet you $100, right now. You already said that plants donít accumulate PCB's. You have got to give me 50 to 1. Because you are the great expert.

Tom Alcamo

Come on now. That's unfair.

Unknown man

Most people when they talk about plants accumulating things talk about things coming up through the roots. This is a rather specialized situation where you got a really waxy (??) plant sitting right next to (interrupted)

Tom Alcamo

I can tell you, I gave you that article on PCB's. What did you think of it?

Jim Cartmell

There is a lot of problems with it. They covered the surface with two inches of ___________. How are you going to monitor v________ of a plant if you have the surface covered with two inches of _________.

Tom Alcamo

I went to my _______ guy and said that this guy is telling me that plants uptake PCB's. Oh, this guy was proud. He had this book that had a study on it. And then you say it's flawed.

Jim Cartmell

He didnít read it then.

Tom Alcamo

He didnít read it then.

Jim Cartmell

He sites some of the reports that I am going to show. That show that plants accumulate a large number of PCB's. So you arenít going to take me up on this $100.

Tom Alcamo

No. You make more than I do.

Jim Cartmell

The point is plants uptake a lot of PCB's. That's the point. 1800 ppm in a plant.

Tom Alcamo

Can I ask you a question? Why did you accuse me of whiting out documents in the administrative record when all I did is white out the confidential. I canít release anything that says confidential. And you accused me of going through and whiting out the documents. That was really unfair.

Jim Cartmell

You know that document was already released to us. But it was never released to us.

Tom Alcamo

That was unfair. If I wanted to manipulate the data, do you think I would put white out on the page so you could wipe it off?

Jim Cartmell

It could be a mistake.

Larime Wilson

Let's just get on.

Jim Cartmell

There is water were every other test results that is recorded says not detected. And then some of the residential wells, there is nothing. It looks like it was white out.

Tom Alcamo

I apologize. Iím sorry I brought it up.

Jim Cartmell

There is other plants that have significant amounts of PCB's. But the point I was making in my comments is that plants do uptake PCB's.

Tom Alcamo

Iím not an expert in this. I will bring, if need be, my ecological (?) expert here to discuss this issue with you.

Jim Cartmell

Iím discussing it right now. And that is just the first part of it.

Tom Alcamo

You have the floor. Go ahead. Iím getting out of here soon. Iíve been here since 4:00.

Jim Cartmell

Here it is. Accumulation of airborne PCB's in ______. So here's hundred's of ppm that are accumulated in an annual plant in two months. Solely by exposure through the air. It was grown in uncontaminated soil, uncontaminated run off. No contaminated dust flows. These plants that are grown down wind from a dump that is covered and has vegetation over it. The plants accumulated in the 100's of ppm in a few months. Now there is nothing that accumulates that much in that amount of time.

Tom Alcamo

I can tell you that Dr. Chapman does not agree with you. Keep presenting it and Iíll go back to the data and talk to Dr. Chapman again. But I trust our ecological experts at the EPA.

Jim Cartmell

These were plants that were grown up to 1200 yards away from the dump. Unfortunately, in this particular study they donít say which result corresponds to how far away form the dump it was. And then it says, "PCB's are found in these extent are carried by vapor transport. Rather than translocation from the plant. And EPA addresses this - it says, "__________ do not incorporate soil PCB's through wood uptake." That's true. They do it through vapor.

This is the ATSDR thing. Toxicological profile. They say the same thing.

Tom Alcamo

The ATSDR report for what they did in Bloomington? What did you think of it?

Jim Cartmell

They excluded a lot of relevant data. They made conclusions that were based on insufficient data. Which they even say. Anyway, it says, "transfer of vapor ______ PCB's from air to aerial plants may be the main source of vegetation contamination. So, weíll get to Bloomington. This was written by Don Jordan in 1977. Here we got beets. Beets that had .6 ppm. And 4 ppm of soil. And we got grass that had 1.6 ppm and 8 ppm of soil. Now that is a 6-7 fold increase from the soil level to what's in the plant. The mechanism is the air, not the roots. So this is part of the PCB sludge study that was here. The sludge sheet of soil from .1 to 107. And they this B here as .6. There is a whole lot of things they didnít site.

Tom Alcamo

You are correct. Someone is growing that in the sludge garden. Iím not arguing with you. We need to get to that.

Jim Cartmell

Weíll get to that. We have a lot of PCB's in the air in a lot of different places. From a lot of different sources. Including the consent decree sites. Here's the test history from the Utility Service Board (USB). The CDC got their data from the USB. And there is a lot of these other sites tested. Ron Neard's farm, 239, didnít make it into the CDC study. Here's something else that didnít make it into the CDC study. PCB's 4.1 ppm in grass. These are big numbers. This is bigger than fish that you are worried about in Clear Creek. 2.25 ppm in weeds - didnít make it into the study. This is from sludge or flood plain of Clear Creek. The PCB's go from the air into the plants. Now the problem is things that eat these weeds and these plants. Here's a cow that gazed on the grass that had PCB's in it. The cow had 5 ppm milk in it. And you couldnít sell the milk. This didnít make it into the study.

Tom Alcamo

Let's say the proposal goes through for Lemon Lane. In terms of excavating, part of the side capping with 6 inches of top soil, 2 feet of fill, 60 mil of flexible membrane liner, 2 feet of clay, and then waste material. That material is going to go through that?

Jim Cartmell

Right now Neal's is ________ and there is _______ of the problem.

Tom Alcamo

You are telling me that that stuff is going to go through that?

Jim Cartmell

Does Neal's have a cap?

Tom Alcamo

A poor one at best.

Jim Cartmell

Why is it poor?

Tom Alcamo

Because it was an interim action.

Jim Cartmell

What's poor about it?

Tom Alcamo

It's not thick enough.

Jim Cartmell

How thick is it?

Tom Alcamo

Some areas 2-3 feet. It all depends.

Jim Cartmell

It was you guys action.

Tom Alcamo

Iím sorry. It was an interim action. It wasnít perfect.

Jim Cartmell

Well, Westinghouse did it pursue to the consent decree. That was suppose to protect our health and well being. And you are telling me it's crap.

Dan Sparks

He's point is, the oversight wasnít there then.

Tom Alcamo

They thought that it was going to be a temporary solution. And it was going to get dug and burned in that incinerator.

Unknown man

Would you do it that way today?

Tom Alcamo

No.

Unknown man

So what are we arguing about? It will take 200 years to get to all of it.

Jim Cartmell

Here's a earthworm that has 60 ppm in it. That's going to me a problem for any robin eating it. There is a lot of other problems with the sludge study. And in turn, wrong with the ATSDR report about data that was left out and not recorded.

Unknown Man

Some of these things over there I see data back to 1970-something. And perhaps maybe these caps that were put on in the 80's. So it quite possible the length of time that somebody could go out there and ______ the testing. Those numbers, you may have to go out and actually do some testing to see where these levels are.

Jim Cartmell

So there has been post-capped testing. And there are levels available for that. And weíll get to those. It's very bad news.

Tom Alcamo

What you are saying is that the cap that we are proposing at Neal's landfill, with 6 inches of top soil, 2 feet of fill, 60 mil flexible membrane liner, and 2 feet of clay, that PCB's will go through that and our problem.

Jim Cartmell

We got this state of work from Winston Thomas. Where they say - (interrupted)

You are telling me something that they might do. I donít know if they are going to do it. You tell me something they are going to claim is done, I donít know if it was done.

Tom Alcamo

If it isnít done now, it will be done.

Jim Cartmell

Well, that needs to be send.

Unknown Man

You brought up a point the other night that a tremendous amount of work will be done tearing up vegetation when we go to, between ICC Springs. And I think the points he is bringing up there will be relevant there. What happens with all this vegetation that we know has for years been up taking PCB's. One of the thoughts is that weíll put chips aside and test them later. But at the same time, when we are tearing things up, more are gong to be v______, and it just moves on down the line. And I think it is a valid area of study. The reason we are fairly adamant about it is because we have been saying it for years. You are the first person that has ever listened at all about this. And it would be smart if you actually had some of the references. I didnít get to see every reference of these studies because they should go to your man who is saying there is not such thing. He should do some back checking on that, I think.

Jim Cartmell

Here is the ATSDR again. People who live ______ that contain PCB's may be exposed primarily by breathing air that contains PCB's. So we got PCB's and water going around here. Last week you said there was some recent information that showed volatization was a problem. That earlier study was from 1982. This is from 1976 that talks about the apparitions of PCB's from the water. And it gives like a half life of PCB's in water in hours. And this is another one. It's PCB's in the United States and Industrial use in a environmental distribution. It's again from 1976. It says, "essentially world wide distribution of chlorinated hydro carbon, such as PCB's suggest that the major route by which such compounds are transported are through the atmosphere. The analysis of co-evaporation of dilute solutions of alcore by equilibrium thermo dynamics suggests that because of the very high activity co efficient of the clor_______ in water, the potential for evaporation is quite high enough that this mechanism is a major cartel by which such compounds enter the atmosphere." So here is fish and wildlife in 1974. They got similar complaints about _____ air. And they say, "after major rain fall events, a____ air in the Stout's Creek is noticeably impaired. And would be a potential significant risk to residence of nearby homes." And they repeat it for the other sites. It looks like the air far away from the dumps are about 3 times higher than other places. Of course the air near the dumps will be higher than that. Here's a guy, Bush. He spent 25 years studying PCB's in the state of New York. He got fired after he started talking about the dangers of inhaling PCB's. Some of the major effects are on the nervous system. They affect like d_____ in your brain and stuff like that. And he says PCB's could be more harmful than previously realized. Minutes from the last meeting we were asking for testing of the air. And we have Tom saying weíll consider, maybe we wonít do anything. This is the minutes from the last meeting. Your reply was it's not a priority, Iíll take it to management, and I donít know what that is going to show.

Tom Alcamo

It's not a priority. The priority is to deal with (interrupted)

Jim Cartmell

Weíll get to why it's a danger. I got some more information about that. And Lou brought up a good point about Mulberries along Clear Creek. Here we got plants that absorb these PCB's. We got kids eating these mulberries. It's an exposure we have to deal with that hasnít been dealt with.

Tom Alcamo

You have 10 minutes.

Jim Cartmell

So here they measured at Lemon Lane. They measured levels of the air. And they got, based on data we have, the current risk of cancer from inhalation of PCB's from Lemon Lane approaches 10 to the -3. Even without consideration of additional risk from dermo exposure. I believe as responsible government officials we must act quickly to reduce this risk. That's from V__________.

This is a response from public comment. What was happening was the public here was saying, actually the City was saying this, in order to assess the risk at Lemon Lane we need to identify what's in it. And measure the concentrations of it. Now here was EPA reply was that no, we donít have time to do that. We are in way too much of a hurry. Because of this huge danger from the evaporating PCB's. Which was .8 micrograms per cubic meter. Which was 1 and 1,000 cancerous. So EPA said, no we are not going to test Lemon Lane for identifying the contaminants in there and determining the contamination. Because the danger is too great and we need to do something immediately. Which is cover the site. EPA said this in 1987. In 1981, when they discovered the site, they said we need to cover this site right away. Sandra Garvinder, the EPA enforcement person on the case, said the same. So it just sit there for six years. And then because we were finally going characterize Lemon Lane for what was in it EPA suddenly said, we canít do that because of the huge danger of the evaporating PCB's. We donít have time to characterize it. So we are going to proceed with covering it immediately. Which is what happened then.

Michael List

Jim, you are running out of time.

Jim Cartmell

Here is where that .8 micro grams per cubic meter was measured right here at Lemon Lane. One thing is this map does not look anything like how Lemon Lane looks like. This is their sampling map that they drew. This is the only way you can draw a sampling map at Lemon Lane that would make their sampling locations look reasonable. See this Mobile Home right here? This is actually right here.

Tom Alcamo

Is that Griffin?

Jim Cartmell

Yes. Griffin's house would actually be right here. And on the south side there was this big banks of compacitors. Here they got in the hundreds of micro grams per cubic meter. There was contamination on the surface of Lemon Lane that went right over to the fence. And we now know there is contamination in Griffin's yard. So instead of monitoring the air right here, they monitored right here. This is 650 feet of trees that were 20-30 feet high. The landfill was covered with fill. This is where they monitored instead of right here. Here is a picture of what Lemon Lane actually looks like. Here is the picture they drew. This was their sampling location. Here's where they should have sampled. They didnít even have air monitoring where the place where the wind was most blowing. And Griffin's yard probably had in the 100's or so. That's a 1 in 10 cancer risk for Griffin's. There is some earlier documents that say we need to figure out what the endangerment from vulitization of PCB's is. In 1982. They didnít admit those results until 1987.

Tom Alcamo

(canít hear) There is some remediation we are going to do out there. There is not going to be any vulitization. I donít know how PCB's could vulitize through 6 inches of top soil, 2 feet of fill, (interrupted)

Jim Cartmell

I will explain to you what the vulitization problem is. The problem is, one thing, you arenít going to be treating what comes out of quarry spring. You got a whole water way that has had PCB's there forever.

Tom Alcamo

I canít say that they may eventually have to put something up there. Who knows. You are right. We need to look at that carefull