Meetings: CIC

Citizens Information Committee

Attendees:

Tom Alcamo

Bill ____

Michael List

Hugh Kaufman

George Hegeman

Mike Baker

Next meeting: October 27, 1998

Tom Alcamo

EPA has officially signed the action memorandum. Which is our final document that implements the building of a water treatment plant at Illinois Central Spring. For an interim water treatment plant we have allocated 2.1 million dollars the for construction of that project. I would like to introduce, Ken Tyson. He is with EPA. Our on-scene coordinator who will actually be building the water treatment plant for us. He's built another large water treatment plant. And heíll be basically the once in charge in terms of the construction. I have a drawing here. This will be a quick talk about what our next steps. In terms of where we are looking to build the plant. What our schedule is. And things that are going to be happening.

Ken Tyson

I work for US EPA in Chicago. I'm an On-Scene Coordinator. The following _____ plant is going to go in this triangle on city property. We are in the final stages of negotiating access with the city to allow us to build the plant here. We are going to use this abandoned railroad right a way, which is also city property, as our access road into the plant. I expect work to start, pending that access agreement, as early as next week. With site surveying. Typing to get the property corners. We have some clearing and grubbing to do to get rid of all the trees. We have some geophysical work that has to be done this fall. As far as soil borings relative to the structural work on the building that is going to house the plant. And the 2 acre foot holding pond. Settling pond. We are also in negotiations with the various property owners over at the spring. It's my intent to eliminate as much surface run off, clean water from entering the Spring running off, the contaminated water, which currently goes underneath the railroad tracks. We are going to do that by constructing a clay ________. We will then jack and bore another culvert underneath the railroad tracks. That will convey clean water into the creek. And at some point the contaminated water will go to our plant. Hopefully this fall and winter we can have the engineering design done. Which we'll be looking at construction sometime around spring. Questions.

Jim Cartmell

Where are you going to clear the ____________?

Ken Tyson

This whole triangle. It's bounded on three sides by a railroad.

Jim Cartmell

Where is the holding pond going to be?

Ken Tyson

We don't know yet.

Jim Cartmell

What's going to happen with the trees and plants there?

Ken Tyson

It'll be chipped and removed.

Jim Cartmell

To where?

Ken Tyson

We aren't sure.

Jim Cartmell

Will it be tested for PCB's?

Ken Tyson

To my knowledge, I didn't know you could have PCB's in wood chips.

Jim Cartmell

Yes, they can. They absorb through the air.

Ken Tyson

It's not my intent at this time to sample the wood chips.

Any other questions?

Unknown Woman (asked questions.....can't hear them.)

Ken Tyson

I believe it was given, or sold. Jeff might speak to this.

Jeff

It was my understanding. .................(Can't hear)

Unknown Man

Is Westinghouse providing the 2.1 million dollars to build the plant?

Tom Alcamo

No. EPA is. We got into a large disagreement with them. We got to a point where it was in the best interest to put an interim water treatment system in now. We felt that if we went to trial, that we could be into yeas of delay. And APA felt that allocated emergency money to do this was the important thing to do now. We will cost recover against Westinghouse later. And again, an interim water treatment plant is not the permanent water treatment plant. We are looking at probably three years and we are going to re-evaluate this system.

Unknown Man

(Can't hear)

Ken Tyson

Anymore questions about the construction?

Jim Cartmell

We have a large holding pond already. That holds contaminated water. It's the Winston Thomas sewage treatment plant. And there was a duck study done there. And the ducks that are three two weeks have all kinds of problems. There is a lot of wildlife affects from having holding ponds. Contaminated PCB's. What is going to be done to restrict access to this holding pond by wildlife or for the air missions that come off of it?

Tom Alcamo

We haven't worked on that. That will be in the design.

Jim Cartmell

I am worried about the design. Winston Thomas has been there for years. And nobody has done anything about it. Now we are building another one.

Ken Tyson

We haven't addressed that yet. We are just in the initial stages of the design.

Unknown Man

Are you aware, or do you have any plans, to deal with the Cory Spring. Which is on the other side of the railroad tracks from the Illinois Central Spring? One thing I would like to add about that is I was out there at one point when the City was filling that. What it is, is that west 5th street is actually above the level of the ground out there. And a property owner was improving that. To I be able to surface that. On the same level as 5th street. For commercial development. At the same time, the City was hauling torn up asphalt out there and other field materials. To assist in that process. At the time it was falling very heavy rain storm. And there was all kinds of water coming out of the ground at different locations there. And it was my concern that the fill might have absorbed PCB's and increase contamination with time. I did report this to City Engineering, City of Bloomington. At the time. The one concern there is that there is that the Spring Quarry Spring, which is in that area, did test positive in at least one test of PCB's. I don't know if you are aware of that. Or have any plans to deal with that.

Tom Alcamo

That will be another phase that _______________ (can't hear). But in terms of what Ken is building, we're not anticipating going over there now. But sometime in the near future.

Unknown Man

Well as far as the record. The area immediately behind Hinkles Hamburgers there, behind the used car lot, at the elbow there of West 5^th Street and Adams should be investigated. Because there are many springs. And apparently there are maybe some large spring openings under the ground that's been filled in. And it comes out in numerous areas now.

Jim Cartmell

Going along with that. They had pcb in the water coming out of Cory Springs. And they know it's connected to Lemon Lane. And to not be including it in an interim measure or whatever seems _________.

Tom Alcamo

I'm not saying that it's not going to be included in the final action in terms of the Lemon Lane decision. This is specifically dealing with Illinois Central Spring right now.

I would like to give a quick slide show regarding Neal's Dump. In which we started re-mediation of Neal's Dump in Owen County. It's located somewhere near Spencer in Owen County was a small site that Westinghouse dumped capacitors at. CBS has begun the clean up of that property. Essentially in the middle of a residential area. Just to give you kind of a quick over view of where we are at. And I'll talk a lot more about that next week. They are excavating right now. The back hole on the right is excavating contaminated soil. The back hole on the left is used to fill trucks that come in. To date we've excavated approximately 25 hundred tons of contaminated soil. And over 2,000 capacitors. Fortunately the capacitors all seem to be intact within the dump. And in discrete piles. Their may be one additional area of capacitors that they have not excavated. They are essentially dealing with soils now. The capacitors are going to an incinerator in _________ Texas. The contaminated soil is going to Wayne disposal in Michigan. They are down in excavation in some areas about 24 feet. And doing some additional boring's around the facility to see what the extent of the movement of the contamination is. This (slide) shows an area when I was there that they were discovering capacitors. The tarp area is for excavated soils that they have excavated, but not verified. We have three air monitoring stations around the facility. People live right next to this place. They are using water to keep down dust. And water treatment: they have not treated any water yet. They have not had a problem with this dry weather. But this (slide) is the water treatment plant they would be using if they are treating water. Which is carbon units. Neal's Dump is moving forward. They have not found as many capacitors as they anticipated. But I think the contaminated soil is what they are looking at. It's moving forward. Hopefully to be done sometime in November. This is being cleaned to residential standards. We are hoping, and we are working with CBS on this, that we may get below detection limit. That's what our goal is. We have up to a 10 ppm standard for PCB's. But we are trying to get to below a detection limit.

Unknown Man

Since the capacitors seem to be intact, are you using a magnetometer?

Tom Alcamo

Yes. I do have some over heads, and I'll show them next week.

Jim Cartmell

Has there been any off-site migration from Neal's Dump ever?

Tom Alcamo

They are doing some additional borings outside the strict excavation. Right now, no. But they are doing borings at depth to determine if there has been.

Jim Cartmell

Do you know if there is any previous information that indicates that outside migration has occurred?

Tom Alcamo

Certainly some of the wells right at the fence line were contaminated. And so there could be. I'm not saying yes or no.

Jim Cartmell

Ground water. Do you know if soil or other?

Tom Alcamo

No.

Jim Cartmell

This is one of your investigations that was done in 1976. And it says "PCB's are not being contained by the disposal site. As evidence of sludge sample of bottom of ditch leaving the site". This says it's outside.

Tom Alcamo

I can only say in terms of what the excavation looks like and where we are going forward.

Jim Cartmell

What may have happened is this ditch may have been covered doing interim measures, or whatever. And the off-site migration that was found then they don't even know where it's at.

Tom Alcamo

I would have a disagreement with that. I can say that when we walk away from this people will be able to take the fence down and use the property. And that's what we are looking for.

Jim Cartmell

It's says, "Sample from bottom of ________ flow ditch which leaves the disposal site. Results show 275 ppm.

Jan Moore

Can you tell me again where the capacitors and where the dirt is being taken. What is the nature of these places?

Tom Alcamo

The dirt is taken to a permitted commercial and compliance landfill in ________ Michigan. The capacitors are being taken to __________ facility in Texas. Which handles PCB's. There is three incinerators in the country.

Jan Moore

I just want to go on record once again as saying that I am opposed to transporting toxic waste across the country into incineration. And to giving our problems to somebody else to put in their back yard to deal with. And shame on us to allow that to happen.

Jim Cartmell

Do you know if there was a thing in the administrative record that talked about when dumping was reported to have occurred there. And when Mr. Neal stated he started to dump in that area. He didn't own that land. But he did own other land that was near there. And it was never resolved whether or not he started dumping in some other land that he did own before he started dumping in what became known as Neal's Dump. And I never heard if that was resolved or not.

Tom Alcamo

I don't know. If there is other information out there that there is other areas he dumped. In terms of where those actually locations are. I don't know.

Jim Cartmell

It's in the administrative record.

Tom Alcamo

In terms of our records. In terms of what I deal with in terms of the MPL sites, that's what I'm dealing with.

Jim Cartmell

You realize that he was dumping and he had to put it some place at that time. Since he didn't own that property. It's likely he was dumping it some place else that he did own that was right near there.

Michael List

Let's wait until we get to that part of the agenda.

Tom Alcamo

To talk about the conduit study. The conduit study at Lemon Lane is continuing. They have put in a total of 17 wells. Outside Lemon Lane. In the valley near Illinois Central Spring. They have found a couple of major deep conduits. One of them had 18 ppb PCB's. They are hoping to do a pump test on that conduit sometime in the next few weeks. I'll talk more about that next week. I have a map here that is hard to see. It's continuing and they are still looking for conduits. And there is water in the shallow areas. Some at extremely high levels. In the neighborhood of 300 ppb PCB's. Winston Thomas. They are still drudging. That will stop sometime around Thanksgiving for the Winter. We didn't get the project done this year. It will begin starting back up sometime next Spring. Where they will drain the T_______ lagoon and then complete the excavation. The ______ lagoons. Trickling filter, sludge digesters, all those have been verified as clean. I have the final reports. They will be in the administrative records for others to view. Regards to additional sampling which was done around the grit chamber. And the City has done some additional sampling, and some culverts. And that data will be available shortly.

Jim Cartmell

Earlier they only sampled only part of the parameter. And there was really no explanation as to why they only did part of it and not all of it.

Tom Alcamo

I don't know exactly what you are talking about. I can say that the area has been significantly sampled. And certainly you will have the available data to show you that the area is clean. To be developed at commercial standards.

Neal's Landfill. We are still negotiating with CBS regarding excavation. We haven't came to any agreement. Or on the expansion of the water treatment at Neal's landfill.

Bennett's Dump. We will begin the excavation of it sometime next May or June. Or CBS will begin it. Because they are paying for it.

We are discussing right now with the other governmental parties our approach for next year. And the number of sites that we have to finish. Hopefully Neal's dump will be completed this year. Bennett's Dump will be done next year. Winston Thomas will be done next year. And at least one of the big landfills hopefully will be done. In terms of how. Maybe some of them are going to need two construction seasons. Depending upon the size of the excavation. But right now we are working on schedules. Hopefully in the next month or two I'll have a better fill of what the next's year is going to hold. I am concerned about doing all of these sites next year. Especially the big landfills. I'm concerned. We have a December, 1999 deadline to meet. And we are going to do our best to meet it. But I am very concerned about meeting that. Just from a logistical stand point. But also from a insuring that everything is done properly.

Unknown Man

Is there anybody from CBS here tonight? I really think that, it's a little small thing, but it sounds like we are sewing Dan Rather and David Letterman. It was Westinghouse, not Dan Rather and David Letterman that dumped all of this stuff on us. I think we should say that the guilty partly that we are speaking about is Westinghouse.

Tom Alcamo

The problem is that Westinghouse does not exist. They are completely defunct. And Westinghouse bought CBS and dissolved the company. And essentially they are a media company now.

Unknown Man

Westinghouse bought CBS. Because they were _______. And then took on the name.

Tom Alcamo

I get the little "i". My new symbol for a sinkhole. The CBS symbol. But that's all the stationary I get. It doesn't say Westinghouse. It says CBS corporation.

Jim Cartmell

This is the question about the drying beds that I asked two months ago and it still hasn't been answered yet. This is the parameter that was tested. I was curious as to why this area hasn't been tested?

Tom Alcamo

It's been tested. I will give those reports to you.

Jim Cartmell

The other question. This is the determination of clean up criteria for Winston Thomas. It said they determined that the clean up level of 50 ppm site wide is not to be exceeded. So here we are doing 25 ppm clean up. And that's what the drying beds and everything is going as. And I asked that a couple of months ago too, and I'd like an answer why everything is going that way.

Tom Alcamo

What are you asking?

Jim Cartmell

You made a determination of clean up standard of 15 ppm and now you are cleaning it to 25.

Tom Alcamo

No. It varies depending upon the unit.

Jim Cartmell

Let's show this again. Dim the lights. It says site wide 15 ppm site wide. It doesn't depend on the unit. This is your determination of clean up standard. It's the March 6, 1997 determination of clean up criteria for Winston Thomas site.

Tom Alcamo

We've implemented clean ups as described in those action memorandums for those sites. At the top of my head, because of the drying beds that were done before my time, I can't speak for that. But in terms of the _______ lagoons, we have had that discussion a couple of months ago.

Jim Cartmell

Actually what you said is that those are judgement calls. And I have all the confidence. And all of that stuff. And I guess the next meeting I'll bring those minutes.

Tom Alcamo

Jim we will give you the final reports so you can see the numbers.

We followed the terms of the action memorandum.

Mick Harrison

What is your clean up standard for not to exceed for this clean up?

Tom Alcamo

Which one?

Mick Harrison

Pick a site. Any one.

Tom Alcamo

Neal's dump. At depth 50. Below 7 feet, 50. Has to be an average of 25. From 7 feet to ground surface is 10, with not to exceed.

Mick Harrison

How about Winston Thomas?

Tom Alcamo

Off the top of my head, I don't know. Each unit is a little different.

Mick Harrison

So Jim might be right that you are not following your own standard. You can't recall?

Tom Alcamo

I can't.

Mick Harrison

You think he's wrong?

Tom Alcamo

Yes.

Mick Harrison

But you can't recall what the standard is?

Tom Alcamo

Right.

Mick Harrison

Bennett's Dump.

Tom Alcamo

Industrial standard of 25, with a not to exceed 50. Regardless of depth. It's only 6 feet.

Some areas of 6 feet, maybe deeper. It depends.

Mick Harrison

I thought it was a quarry.

Tom Alcamo

At least looking back at the borings. The borings to bedrock were sometimes only 6 feet. 9 feet. It wasn't dumped in a pit.

Mick Harrison

So in your opinion you are complying with all your clean up standards that you set in your documents at this time?

Tom Alcamo

Yes.

Michael List

Next item on the agenda. Which is PCB sites not included in the consent decree. Mr. Kaufman will open up the discussion. And then we will take questions.

Hugh Kaufman

For those who don't know who I am. I was one of the people who started EPA. Almost 30 years ago. And before that I was a Captain in the Air Force. In my family, government service is a honorable profession. And I'm an engineering and investigator. And I was the first investigator of hazardous sites. And I help write all the federal laws involving waste disposal. Including superfund(?). I've observed a lot. And I am helping Bob Martin in dealing with important cases that have been brought to the attention by citizens. To try and help regional offices facilitate doing the right thing. For me, this particular case, the Bloomington PCB case, is quite unique. Because I am known as a whistle blower. It was my testimony to congress, and one young freshman congressman Albert Gore, over twenty years ago, that blew apart the love canel case. And then I did it again about five years later forcing President Reagan to send my boss, the Assistant Administrator to jail. The first EPA official ever sent to jail. So I'm not necessarily loved by everybody. Although my Mom loves me still. And may she live longer so there is still someone who cares about me. In any event, Mick Harrison, whom I see, when I first came to Bloomington investigating this case was struggling away with ______. And I never saw anyone so much paper holding everybody accountable. And there was a large amount of citizen's support. And there was a real reason to do that. Because the agency at the beginning, I think, did a lousy job. And a disservice to this community. By going behind closed doors and negotiating a consent agreement that was not in the best interest of the public. And now coming back to this case, over a dozen years later, and meeting some of the justice department people, EPA people, Tom, who hasn't even been at it a year, and watching how hard they are doing working around what I think is a lousy consent agreement. And working to try and get things done within the constraints that were put in place and shouldn't have been, over a dozen years ago. All I can say is that I wish Tom was around when you were at _______ Mick. Because I think it would have been a whole different kind of ball game. Because instead of having real open public participation, what you got was the party line. You just see the stone wall. Finally Mick got so frustrated that he became a lawyer. Now, I don't know whether that is good or bad, Mick. And so he has been helpful for other citizen groups around the country. Sometimes successful. Sometimes hitting the stone wall. EPA's region are mixed bag. Some sites are done better than others. And I'm sure Mick could spend all night and probably the next day just hitting the surface of some of his war stories. So it's sort of nice to be coming back to Bloomington. And the reason I'm back is because some of the same hole crew have identified a problem that they feel really needs attention. Separate and apart from the issues that are being addressed right now. By the consent agreement. By negotiations. Forced by Judge Dillon. And that has to do with other sites where PCB contamination may be. So that EPA fulfills not just the letter of the law, but the spirit of the law. In terms of if they are here in Bloomington, and if our regional people are working, then we should be dealing with all of the CBS/Westinghouse problems. Not just those parts of the problems that were identified in the close door meetings over a dozen years ago. And I came to Tom Alcamo. And I had never met him before. And said, headquarters would like to work with you on this. And has Mick will say, sometimes when I show up at a regional office, doors slam before I hit the elevator. Tom said, come right in, here's all our files. And that's an important issues. And we want to do it. And I think, frankly, just looking at this meeting. Just what I have seen for the past half hour, in terms of the public being involved. In terms of back and forth. In terms of issues being put up there. In terms of honestly getting public comment on every phase. I frankly think that things have changed now. Instead of a dozen years ago Bloomington begin an example of how not to do superfund remediation. I think what is happening now Bloomington is becoming how they all should be done. Because I have done cases that this is pretty open compared to a lot of other cases. Why I am here is to kick off, with Tom, to look for and identify where there is factual information, other sites. Other sites that may have PCB's. And there are some problems with that. Obviously. There are issues related to privacy. And some people might want to provide information, but not with TV cameras. To identify sites and gather information you have to walk the sites. People work. You can't expect the public to take off a days pay if they have got information. So Tom and I are going to work out with the public weekend days to actually look at sites. This is Tom's project. It is not my project. I just want to help him. And I think however you administratively going to set that up, in terms of setting appointments and when, I'll work around your schedule Tom. But we are going to do that. And let the chips fall where they may. And if it costs the PRP's more money, that's their problem. But we are going to do our job.

Tom Alcamo

There has been another site area that has been discovered. And CBS has been made aware of it. So there has been some recent indications that other stuff is out there. IDEM and us will be working closely with CBS to address that site.

Hugh Kaufman

So I am afraid you are going to be stuck with me some more. It's not just a one shot visit. For good or for bad. I am very hopeful that not withstanding all the political _______, from many different ways, that we can keep expanding protection of the public health and environment. We have been, at least what I have seen in this case, and a few other cases, (we being the agency), are getting more strapped for money. But we are trying not to let that get in the way of our very broad mandate. And I would like to keep that going. Certainly here. There is Washington. I have been in Washington my whole life, expect for four years in the Air Force, and I have never seen anything like what has been going one. It's like there is games being played. And I'm not taking position ________, but there is a real country here. And the government has a very important role to play. In working with the public, among other things, to protect the natural resources and the health of future generations. And I'm concerned that the political ___________ are taking public's eye away from the business of the people. So I hope in what limited work we are trying to do together in Bloomington, that we can keep putting this kind of energy in with these many folks, asking hard questions. And doing hard things. I'm hopeful that at least we can keep the country's business, at least in this community, going. Even though there is dependance on federal money and federal resources so it can occur. One final thing before we open it up, there is a web site that I was unaware of until I met Tom, where data controlled by the public is being put out on the web related to this site. Boy, I wish that was happening in all the other sites. That is really a model. And I think that type of public participation and involvement in the process is a terrific model. And I hope that some of the folks here who are participating in the process might fan out outside of Bloomington and speak to a rotary club, or whatever, or where ever you go, and talk about, and fertilize some of the rest of the country. Just having that web site occurring, where Tom is providing you information, and you are getting other information, and putting it up there, really helps. It goes to the whole democracy issue. It really is important if we are going to try and make things better as opposed to worse. I'll open it up for discussion now.

Margo Blackwell

I use to represent a group called PATI, People Against the Incinerator. We did many things. We learned many things. We helped stop Westinghouse and communities thirteen different times. Thus dispelling the myth that "honey" you can't beat Westinghouse, which I was told many times. And I'm nobody's "honey".

Hugh Kaufman

And now there is no more Westinghouse, and you are still here.

Margo Blackwell

Yes. That's true. That was the solution to the problem. No more Westinghouse. And now they are more vulnerable. And I hope we stop their nuclear operations as well. Which we are working on. But I have a very serious concern which was begun by Jan Moore, and I'm so grateful that she said it. One of the things that I learned a very long time ago when I first got involved from a lady named Lois Gibs was that their are people all over the world who have these same problems. There is contamination everywhere. We have military plants properties everywhere. They are all contaminated. Probably with dioxin, heavy medals, solvents, nuclear materials. We have just spread our white trash everywhere. And that's what it is. And I'm embarrassed. And I didn't know what to do about it. But I realized that digging up the entire earth, and the ocean, and the space junk, and everything wasn't the solution. I appreciate the fact that many of you feel that digging it up is the right thing to do. But digging it up and taking it up to Texas to incinerate it when we stopped one here, is against the law of God, our Creator. We are doing that to other people, and other animals. And it falls on the earth there. And I think the thing that we have to do is to stop doing what we are doing. And start seeing, like Katie Wolf said, about the people and the animals. And stop tearing things to bits. And seeing if we can't fix things some more natural way. I did find the answer, but you wouldn't believe me if I told you. But I would be glad to speak to any of your about it. It's a spiritual solution which I have found. Because I said what can we do for the whole earth. It isn't just Bloomington. And it matters very much what happens here because it is the whole earth. We have trashed the whole thing. They use to burn PCB's out in the ocean. And there is nuclear submarines that our sunk down there. And they wonder why the whales are beaching. They are saying help. Stop it. Just stop what we are doing. And that's something right there. Stop creating more chemicals and more nukes. And if Al Gore is an environmentalist then he should stop an nuclear incinerator in Oak Ridge right in his own back yard. And I told him that before he was nominated for Vice President. And he still hasn't done it. And he knows that the truth. And that is the truth. We have to stop doing what we are doing. And say what can we do help the people. I'm standing here shaking because I have multiple chemical sensitivity. And my nervous system is destroyed. At one point all my hair fell out when it was to my knees, and I cried. I have endured friends getting leukemia. People's animals dying. My animals dying. I think it's time that we stop digging up the earth. And God knows she's tired of it. Look what she's doing to everybody. And I learned that when you dig up the PCB's it releases Chlorine and Fosgene Gases. Because of the ultraviolet radiation, known as the sun. Fosgene, that's what got me. That's why I'm cool. And I think that we have to start helping the people. If nothing else, let's begin with doing what should have been done at the very onset. The remedial investigation. Feasibility study to say where is it all. What is there. What choices do we have to do something about it. And coming from my perspective. From how I learned from all those people from all over the world whom I met with sick, dead, dying children. We are going to have to do a RIFS on the whole earth. And I'm sorry. Thank you.

Larime Wilson

I'm going to briefly address the question we are here, to talk about other sites. I thank you for coming here, too. What I would like to ask is when you consider these other sites you consider our local population. And our uses of the sites here. We are not people who don't have other background exposures. There may be a residential standard of 10 ppm some place, but I would like you to consider what is actually the uses of these sites right now. For example, some of them are garden sites. And a 10 ppm clean up is no where near reliable for growing food. Many of them are garden sites. That's what they took sludge home for. We have reported sites of over 200 capacitors dumped in a revene that is now Lake Monroe. Which is now our city water supply. And these capacitors may at any time break open. And I want to consider where these are at now. And that their water in ground water is also of concern. Also salvage sites. There are salvagers living by these salvage sites, were on these salvage sites. And the salvagers may have the very highest exposure levels at anyone in Bloomington history every had. They worked with these things. They had their hands in it on a daily bases. And they want you also to consider that we have compromised populations living right near where this gentleman showed the triangle where this water treatment plant is going to be built at. Right directly across a railroad track from there. Last year, in 1997 was built a housing development for low income people. Also a home for people with mental illnesses. And also a home for people with HIV. And so what I am trying to summarize this up is that we can't use standard risk models in accessing whether these sites are " worthy of further investigation". We have a special population here in Bloomington. We are not just some statistic on the map. We have background exposures. The second thing I want you to consider is the reliability of our witnesses. It breaks my heart that we have to call out some of these people who came out in 1983 and ask them to give them their story again. Some of these people who testified in 1983 and before are now dead. And some of them who are even here tonight are in very ill health.

Hugh Kaufman

Can I ask a question. When you say testified?

Larime Wilson

To report their evidence.

Hugh Kaufman

Was there a formal process?

Larime Wilson

Yes there was.

Hugh Kaufman

Was there a report written? Who was the chair?

Larime Wilson

The consent decree hearings. The hearings before the consent decree was ever adopted. Well, actually as you know it was adopted before the hearings, but those hearings brought out considerable evidence.

Hugh Kaufman

Tom, do we have those?

Tom Alcamo

We have some reports. I know the City has most of the records in terms of that. But we do have a report that Dan Hopkins done some additional (interrupted by someone ---can't hear)-----

Larime Wilson

There are video tapes of those hearings for one thing. EPA may not have them in their procession, but the community does. And we can find them for you.

Hugh Kaufman

You say there may video tapes of those sessions where other sites were presented? Could you get copies to Tom?

Mike Baker (?)

We have all of them as far as I know.

Larime Wilson

For example, our Lemon Lane site. Which is reportedly one of the biggest ones we have here was reported by a person who is here tonight to testify. And the City would not have even known except for that person came forward and said they were in Lemon Lane. The same salvagers came forward and said they were at Fells(?). And the EPA and the state and checked out Fells(?) and they said it was clean. It took a citizen to pull one out and take it to a reporter to get Fells(?) looked at. These same people who came and testified, there are ariel photographs that back up their testimonies of where they dumped them. They were hollers and they took them to the quarries and they took them to the places that had road access. The second point that I was trying to make it that there are reliability of are witnesses as with absolute integrity. And we consider that to be factual. We do not need EPA to go out and sample to tell us if there is PCB contamination where these witnesses say they put it or saw it. We only need EPA to find it and do something about it. Thirdly, I want to bring in that we as petitioners ask that we want to investigate not just where these other sites are, but EPA's handling of these other sites. I'll give you just three examples here. I'll start with one at 1010 North Oolitic Street. Which was tested on the wrong side of the street. Not even on the lot where it was at. There is another site which is now JB salvage yard. And it had a very large Willow Tree on it. And we had a salvager report that there were over 200 capacitors right by that Willow Tree. And we had researchers draw a map with an X what corner of that Willow Tree it was at. And EPA went out and took three samples on the three other corners. And reported that site to be clean. And it is now, you couldn't even find that Willow Tree. That was graded down to the roots of that tree were exposed. And the whole tree was graded over. So good luck finding them now. But if we know they are there, they are still there. And the third site that I want to bring up that is a personal concern to me is on Range Road, where the University Family Student Counsel operated then, and operates now, at community garden. Where plots are leased out to individuals to use. There was sludge reported to be put on those gardens by at least seven reports. Individual gardeners who put that sludge on their plots roughly in the years 1977. The CDC tested that sludge to have a mean average of 479 ppm. When the testing was ever got around to be done on those plots, eight of them were tested. Two came up non detect, one was not ever tested. And when I went to the University when I used that as a garden plot and asked for those records, nobody, not the University, not the City, not the EPA, not anybody could find the records except for the ones that came up non detect. They can't find the records of the ones that came up detectable. There was at least 7+ to begin with. This is about a 3 acre garden.

Hugh Kaufman

7 plots. 2 were non detect. And that was the only records you could find?

Larime Wilson

Yes. Of the non detect ones. And what I would like to suggest about that is the faultiness of the testing. They ran out and did some surface samples. If you are growing vegetables there you are not growing them on the surface. And these plants have roots systems that core samples need to be taken. If you go out there and they put that amount of sludge on the plot, 3 inches thick, and you can't find it, there is something wrong with how you are testing it. And those are just three examples I want to give about testing. I don't want to list a whole lot of other sites because the people that observe them are here tonight. I do want to mention that we have a lot of other pressing issues besides other sites. We hope you are going to still going to stay involved. Failure to conduct the RAFS that Margo mentioned to begin with is still needed. Failing to stop on going releases. We don't agree that this 80% water treatment facility is enough. Failure to provide adequate public involvement in decision making. I'm really sad if we are a role model for the rest of the country. For example, every single person on the CIC and the public that attends the CIC meeting has agreed that all of Lemon Lane needs to be excavated. And that as far as we can see from the EPA is a closed issue. And the other parties. We have asked for this water treatment for 10 or 15 years. Until the meeting before last, all EPA would say is either we can't do anything or we will deal with it later. And at the last meeting it was announced what they are going to build. With no public discussion on how much of a treatment center we need. And it's all based on we only got 2 million dollars. We are not going to get it off Westinghouse. And then done. It's a done deal. It's an action memorandum. And the last point on that is that we had a public comment period for this Neal's site that we were shown earlier this evening. And we had from the EPA office calling up a citizen and asking if you mind if we go ahead and jump the gun and start this before the public comment period ends.

Tom Alcamo

It's not true.

Larime Wilson

Because we want to get done before winter starts. And that I think is a disgrace to the public who are still writing their public comments. Anyway, I just mentioned those last points to show that everything is not hunky dory here. We don't feel like the clean up is being controlled by Judge Dillon. We feel like the parties have just opted out. And we want your continuing involvement on the other issues too. And I'll let the rest of the people who have observed the sites tell you more about where they are at.

Hugh Kaufman

While an issue is raised. Tom, you said that the one thing may not be accurate as it relates to - for the record?

Tom Alcamo

Public comment was over. They did begin work before the rod?? was signed. Basically they came to us and said that we are going to Judge Dillon to get a judicial order to start Neal's dump. We told them you can not start. They said we are going anyway. And public comment period was done before they went forward. And in terms of the public comments, I got 2 people, out of all the public comments, which are in the library, that opposed the clean up. Everyone else supported the clean up. I think another thing to keep in mind, you say 10 ppm in terms of residential.

Larime Wilson

I just to point out that that's not what I said. I don't know when they started out there. I said that a message was received by Mike Baker who passed it around to the rest of the CIC list that we were asked for our permission to go ahead and start it before the comment period ended.

Tom Alcamo

The problem was is when CBS said "we're going to get an order to begin this clean up". And we said the public comment period is not over. When we analyzed the public comments, all of them were favorable but 2 people.

Margo Blackwell

I would like to point out that no matter how many opportunities we have for public comment here, neither Westinghouse, nor CBS, nor EPA, nor IDEM, nor the City, nor the County, nor the DOJ, nor anybody does what we need for them to do. It's all just a dog and pony circus show. And after all of these years, 1957 is when they came here, it's time to stop that. And stop this Clinton double speak of this is what I'm saying, but - It's like they told the Indians. And you have been doing it ever since. We'll say enough to calm you down, and then we'll do what we want. And that's what happens. That is historical here. And there are no amount of law suits, because you all own the courts, there is none that will take care of that. There's just us getting in your faces. And do you think we like coming out here and looking like this to people at home sitting there in their living rooms thinking ëGod, look at her, she's really mad'? And I am mad. And it's partly because these chemicals have done this to me. And the CDC comes here and spends all kind of our money to tell us, there is no problem here in Bloomington. But we'll take your public comment, and then we'll do what we want. That's history here in Bloomington. And those who ignore history are condemned to repeat it. And I for one don't want to. I don't want anybody to raise a child that's looney toons like me ever again. Because of what these chemicals have done to my nerve system. I'm sorry. Because we have been told that forever.

Michael List

I wanted to introduce Leon Mullis (spelling?) to Mr. Kaufman. Leon is one of my heros. He's been involved in this since day one. And I would like for him to tell you in his own words what we has seen. About other sites. About contamination that hasn't been addressed. And with your permission, after Leon finishes telling you his story if David McKray (spelling?) has questions to refresh Leon's memory, or Jim Cartmell, or I, we would like some opportunity to do that.

Leon Mullis

I have been working on PCB's since 1981. When I found out about them. I am the one who reported Lemon Lane in the beginning. To Frank McClusky, which was our Mayor at that time. More important now, we all know about Lemon Lane. What you are here now for is to try and find out the story about some other unknown sites. Well, I've got I don't know how many hours work on that map over there. There is a lot of sites out there. I'll tell you where they are at right now. And that's unknown. The biggest part of them, you go look at them sites, they was created in 1958, 1959, 1960. Biggest part of them. Them sites were dumps then. That's been forty years ago. Now what your going to find when you look at these sites, you are going to find highways, housing developments, parking lots, and everything. A lot changes in forty years. So where you are going to find these out now is just about any where you want to look. You may walk anywhere in Monroe County and be walking on an hot spot and not know it. I can still take you and show you a few hot spots. But you are going to find the majority of them have been re-landscaped and everything else.

Hugh Kaufman

Leon, how did you come aware of most of these sites?

Leon Mullis

Health problems and close friends dying from the same symptoms. I don't want to get into the health problems. I'm not qualified to do that.

Michael List

Tell them about yourself.

Leon Mullis

Well, capacitors is a recyclable item. You can recycle it. The same way you recycle alum. cans now. You recycle the capacitors, the copper, the lead, the solder, and the brass that was in them. They were all recycle materials. There were a lot of them sites where I actually done recycling myself. There was a lot of them done back when I was a truck driver. I didn't know what I was hauling. I would go with a Load All, hit the container, dump it in the top of the truck, take it to the dump, hit the button, shove it out, and drive off.

Hugh Kaufman

So you became aware of this because you were a truck driver and thus had first hand knowledge of dumping.

Leon Mullis

Yes. When I begin to learn the truth about this chemical, I realized that was the stuff I had dealt with back in 1958, 1959, 1960. And that's the realize I know where they are at. The reason I can tell exactly where they was at in these dumps and everything is because I drove a City Trash Truck for about 4 years.

Hugh Kaufman

Now did city officials aware that city trucks were taking capacitors with PCB's and dumping them? Where your bosses aware of this? City officials?

Leon Mullis

No. The year I hauled, I never did haul for Westinghouse.

Hugh Kaufman

You hauled for the City, right? You were a City employee?

Leon Mullis

No.

Hugh Kaufman

You were a contractor?

Leon Mullis

No. I drove a truck for JL Burks in 1972. Out of Indianapolis. And we run what you call a Load Alls service. I drove a truck that actually just hit the containers, dumped them in the top, and dumped them. The same as everybody else was doing back them years. Now I didn't haul for Westinghouse. But I knew all the drivers that did. I hauled out of RCA and several other plants. But I knew all of them that did. And I'm one of them that went to that dump. And salvaged these metals. Which there was a few years there that it was not a small operation.

Michael List

Give us some idea of how big it was.

Leon Mullis

There was several weeks there that I made $600-$700 a week. Now I know that is not much money now days, but try to picture $700 a week in 1959. That's salvaging. But it only lasted a couple of years and then they started wising up. And then _____ Iron and Metal got the contract. And they started hauling out to Bennett's quarry.

Michael List

How many capacitors do you think were salvaged?

Leon Mullis

Thousands and thousands of them.

Michael List

Where do they take them to be salvaged?

Leon Mullis

We would sell them to local junk yards. Usually Ed. Grains, or Fells, or somewhere.

Michael List

Did anyone take capacitors to their homes to salvage? Or private property.

Leon Mullis

Yes. A lot of times. I rented a house off of V. Tacker. And Melvin Tacker was one of the guys that hauled. And Melvin would take his dump truck and dump it right there in my back yard. Which you couldn't see it from the road. Between my house and the grocery store.

Michael List

What are we talking about, capacitors?

Leon Mullis

Several of hundred of them. We were using dump trucks. At that age I was 16 and we would cut them open, clean them, and we were hauling them loads right straight to Sam _____ in Indianapolis. Which isn't there now. Our Astrodome is there now.

Michael List

Do you know other folks that salvaged?

Leon Mullis

Yes. There was a lot of other salvagers. The Flanders family. Pat Gray. Windall Chambers was a big one. Curt Youbanks was a big one. There was a lot of them. They were all small contractors that hauled out of Westinghouse.

Michael List

What was you salvaging and how did you do it?

Leon Mullis

Simple. You lay the capacitors out in a row. Run down one side with a cutting torch. Back down the other side with a cutting torch. Break them in half and dump them out. You got a metal box. You got the copper strips inside. If it's the small ones you have several pound of solder in them. 40-60 solder in them. You got two glass insulators. A copper wire running up the center. Two brass rings. Two copper tops on them. With copper nuts on them.

Michael List

And you sold the copper and what else?

Leon Mullis

The copper, the brass, and the metal box. The PCB's was oil. It looked like about 5 white motor oil. I couldn't understand them. He kept saying the capacitors he was showing on the screen was intact. I couldn't follow what he meant by intact.

Tom Alcamo

The weren't cut open.

Leon Mullis

Okay. But I could see on the picture the glass insulator was broke off. There is two glass insulators on them. And when you break the insulator there is a 3 in diameter hole there. And it just pours out. And that is where the PCB's are at. In that oil.

Hugh Kaufman

Now, where would you get the capacitors to salvage?

Leon Mullis

From the Lemon Lane landfill. Where I cleaned most of them at was right there at the landfill.

Hugh Kaufman

In other words, Westinghouse dumped the capacitors at the landfill. And you went to the landfill and salvaged them?

Leon Mullis

I want to make one thing clear. I say Westinghouse trucks. But I can't ever recall seeing the Westinghouse emblem on the side of that truck. Believe me, I've tried.

Michael List

Why did you think it was Westinghouse?

Leon Mullis

Because they were all the same kind of trucks. And they were coming right straight from Westinghouse. Now that's the Lemon Lane landfill.

Michael List

Tell them what you know about where capacitors where salvaged, dumped, and burned at Lemon Lane property. What parts of the landfills.

Leon Mullis

A lot of different parts. But it was mostly on the south end. But, we cleaned them all over the place. Oil in a capacitor is actually fire resistant. So what I would to, I would dump my load of pallets (I was dumping pallets out of RCA at this time), Westinghouse trucks would come in and dump them capacitors on top of the pallets. Once you got that fire generated hot enough, and got the capacitors a blowing, they would burn. Lemon Lane was a burning site. Ray Neal's landfill on the county landfill on Whitehall Pike was not a burning site.

Michael List

How many different people do you think salvage capacitors at one time or another?

Leon Mullis

I could sit here and think of at least two or three dozen off hand.

Michael List

How many different sites received capacitor ________ for disposal?

Leon Mullis

Hundreds of small sites. If not several hundred small sites. This map over here will give you some idea of it. Like I said, a dump in 1959 looks a lot different in 1999.

Hugh Kaufman

Why would Westinghouse salvage their own capacitors?

Leon Mullis

I don't know why they would not do their own. It was not economically feasible for them I guess.

Hugh Kaufman

Mick, could you help me. Because I'm trying to really understand here. Clearly salvaging those capacitors was very profitable at the time.

Mick

Somewhat profitable. Done in the way it was done. Which was without precautions for safety.

Hugh Kaufman

But there were no safety precaution standards in the 50's.

Mick

That's a matter of opinion. We have literature showing Westinghouse knew the danger of works back to as far 38 something.

Hugh Kaufman

So, why were they dumping those capacitors? There were no good anymore?

Mick

Yes. They were waste.

Hugh Kaufman

Manufacturing rejects?

Mick

Essentially. They couldn't use them.

Hugh Kaufman

So because Westinghouse had manufacturing rejects?

Leon Mullis

Yes. And there was old capacitors there too?

Hugh Kaufman

Why would Westinghouse have used capacitors? They don't use them, they just manufacture them.

Leon Mullis

They wore them out. They used them on telephone poles and they wore them out.

Mick

There is another answer that I don't think Leon knows. I think some other of the folks here know that Westinghouse was receiving used capacitors back with their capacitors. Maybe even on a national basis. Here in Bloomington.

Hugh Kaufman

And they were doing that why? Because that was part of the contract. They would sell them and take them back?

MicK

Yes. You eliminate the ______ (interrupted--can't hear).

Hugh Kaufman

Like returnable bottles?

Mick

Essentially. Instead of being recycled.

Hugh Kaufman

And because there were industrial practices to protect worker health and safety rather than them salvaging them. The economics may have worked that it was better just to dump them. I'm just trying to brain storm here.

Mick

Westinghouse has never told me why they were doing this. It's a bottom line thing. They saved money.

Jim Cartmell

There was a process that they did to figure out how much money they could save by salvaging themselves. And stuff like that. They never did it.

Hugh Kaufman

I understand.

Mike Baker

I just want to comment that most common __________ processes through the 80's did not normally anything because it was more cost effective just to produce it than scrap what was defective.

Michael List

That makes it all the more puzzling why Westinghouse took these things back.

Mick

((( CAN'T HEAR VERY WELL - VOICE TOO LOW ))

__________What happen was Westinghouse was involved in manufacturing as well as sales. When these capacitors _____________. And in term they sold the capacitors to be used by collectable utilities. ________________ And what would happen was during the manufacturing process they would have capacitors that were damaged in the manufacturing process. Now this has been told to me by people who worked at the plant. If the capacitors were damaged during the manufacturing process. _______________. If they were repairable, it would be repaired as _______. If they were damaged too bad, they would be simply rejected and hauled off for scrap. Furthermore, what would happen was that the capacitors would be shipped out and they would be used by the utilities. And the utilities would call Westinghouse and say, you sold us a bunch of bad capacitors, take them back. So they would go back to the plant, they would re test it. And it would be either rejected or repaired. The same as new capacitors. So, an awful lot of capacitors made it back to Bloomington.

Hugh Kaufman

So Bloomington was not only a capacitor manufacturing hub, it was also a ______ hub?

Mick

((( COULD NOT HEAR)))

Jim Cartmell

How many capacitors per week would you say came out of Westinghouse?

Mick

I don't know that the capacitors were actually returned for disposal.

Hugh Kaufman

Right.

Mick

But they were returned because they were rejected by their customers.

Hugh Kaufman

I want to say, I don't know if everyone in this room knows this, but right now there has been this back and forth whether they are going to shut down the government or not. And they want to have continuing resolutions. Because neither the republicans or the democrats want to be blamed for being so ineffective that the government has to shut down. The senate majority leader put as a rider to some budget reconciliation so the budget won't shut down. A bill that exempts many hazardous materials from regulation and public health protection. By coming under the recycling loophole of the hazardous waste and hazardous material lose. So that in a sense piggybacking, and very few people know about it. Piggybacking on politics is expanding this loophole to legalize putting into commerce the very things that we are trying to clean up. The reason why I tell you this is because I would hope that some of the energy here would also look at these national issues. And communicate it to your friends and neighbors. So we don't end up expanding the problem as Bloomington has demonstrated as a major problem. Which is so called recycling. That in reality has created so much environmental harm.

Unknown Woman

Until very recently in this country I think the general mood and idea was that our resources and our land were without limit. The idea of recycling wasn't in anybody's head to do so. And not in industry's head. The people who it did occur to them was the people who needed to make a living off of other people's trash. I'm sure the answer as to why Westinghouse wouldn't recycle their own is pretty obvious. Now industry begins to realize that not only is it the moral thing to do to recycle, but it's actually money in it.

Michael List

We need to finish Leon's testimony. Leon, how many capacitor's could you salvage in a week on a good week?

Leon Mullis

200 at least. But now the capacitors wasn't the only thing. It all wasn't just the hard cutting of the capacitor.

Michael List.

How many capacitors would come out of capacitors per week?

Leon Mullis

They would haul 5 days a week. There was at least one truck, if not two, that would come into Lemon Lane dump.

Michael List

And were you the biggest salvager around?

Leon Mullis

No.

Michael List

Some people made more money than you?

Leon Mullis

Right. While I was cleaning them at Lemon Lane Fells was also hauling to Bennetts. They were cleaning and had the Flanders boys re salvaging and taking it back to the salvage yard there on North Rogers.

Michael List

Mr. Kaufman, I believe from another source, one of your questions was why did they bring these compactors back. I understand that one of the reasons was that Westinghouse wanted to determine the cause of the failures.

Leon Mullis

I heard you speak of money being spent to treat the water. Money being spent to clean up a site. Is there any money whatsoever appropriated, or in the plans, or health studies, or development of any medicines that could help people when we determine what the long term affects are?

Tom Alcamo

In terms of my budget, I don't see any of that. Certainly ATSDR does that kind of stuff. I'm not familiar with that.

Leon Mullis

Does it seem odd for us to spend all of this tax money cleaning up spots and water if we don't appropriate at least a dime to find out what it's doing to the human body? In 1981 they asked me what site I wanted cleaned up. And I said I'd like to have the site inside me cleaned up.

Tom Alcamo

I think PCB's, obviously, we have a large, from the governmental priorities perspective, a large disagreement with CBS. In terms of the health effects of PCB's. They do not feel that PCB's are health affects. We certainly do. The evidence is out there. And therefore that's why we are addressing these sites.

Michael List

There is something else that you can do, or Mr. Kaufman can do, and that is you could recommend to ATSDR to do medical monitoring for selected people in this community who has known exposures. Now they have the authority to do that. And you have the authority to recommend it. And he doesn't know quite how to asked that, but I would ask it on his behalf. Is that okay with you Leon?

Leon Mullis

Yes.

Hugh Kaufman

We can do that.

Michael List

How many other salvagers would you guess were in the business besides you?

Leon Mullis

There were a lot of them. Several members of the Flanders family. I don't know if I should go down all the list naming names or not.

Michael List

If you are uncomfortable naming names, you can go over the list with Mr. Kaufman later.

Leon Mullis

Several dozen.

Hugh Kaufman

We are coming back to look at sites. On weekend.

Leon Mullis

I would be more than happy to take you and show you what is left. I will give you fair warning, the biggest part of them is either highways or apartment complexes or somebody's crop garden. You are finding them wherever they excavated them and moved them to now. And it's nobody's fault but our own. We are the one who goofed around all of these years. We should have solved this problem years ago. That's all I have to say.

David McKray

Leon introduced me to the subject in June 1981. I have addressed time and energy to it for 17 years. It's difficult for me to know where to begin to make an impact. A petition signed by 10,000 Bloomington and Monroe County citizens to stop the incinerator did not make an impact.

Hugh Kaufman

I think the incinerator got stopped.

David McKray

This was the petition before the consent decree was signed.

Jim Cartmell

More people that voted for the Mayor signed this petition against the consent decree.

Hugh Kaufman

I remember this now.

David McKray

The votes were cast before the meetings were held. On the consent decree. It's now 13 years since the consent decree was signed. And this has been too slow moving for anybody's satisfaction, particularly mine. I don't understand how it could be that slow except the cartoon, which is how do you clean up a toxic waste dump? - You hire 49 attorneys and 1 dump truck operator. And basically we have been attorneyed to death on this issue by Westinghouse. And they are good. And they can put your back to the wall and they can make mince meat out of it. Because they have got the funds to spend on the attorneys to save the real money. Which is the cost of human health in the environment. And there has not been one dime spent by Westinghouse elective cooperation for the human health of it's workers. Those workers were saturated. The failed compacitors came to the plant. One of the individuals who tore them apart was a lady who was 6-7 months pregnant. Those people had their shoes eaten off their feet. Worked in an area called the swamp. Had PCB levels that were through the ceiling in their blood and in their tissue.

Hugh Kaufman

Has there been any class action litigation by any of those?

David McKray

it has failed. In Indiana an employee can not sue his employer if he is intentionally, maliciously, and wantedly poisoned. The only remedy he has is the occupational diseases act. That's the law. Statutory and Supreme Court decision in a case in which I was involved. It's not a very good law.

Hugh Kaufman

Mick, how does that fall with reckless endangerment?

Mick (CAN'T HEAR VERY WELL)

If you knowingly expose your workers to a toxic chemical and they were harmed, that would be no _______. Now the years you are talking about David were pre _______. Pre Resource Conservation Recovery Act. Which establishes an endangerment. Violation of Crime. 1976 I think.

David McKray

Not for an employee.

Mick

When did the employee exposure stop?

David McKray

Probably 1977. That's when they stopped shipping PCB's to the plant.

So anyhow, the remedy is essentially non-exsistant. I know three sites. Two of them as a result of information from Leon. These sites have been tested. They have high levels. I can take you right to them. There is not fence. There are no warning signs. It's surface clean up in the case of two. And nothing in the case of the third. Which I have discussed on many occasions with the US EPA. US EPA says talk to the state. State doesn't have the staff. What we wanted at the one site was very simple. Almost too simple for words. A fence. Warning signs. Testing for dioxin like PCB's. And if there is one word that carries from my presentation tonight, I want it to be dioxin like PCB's. They have been identified by the US EPA as being toxic. And you can read and interpreted their document at a ppt level. Not million, not billion, but trillion. There are 209 molecules. 13 of those molecules have dioxin like toxicity. At the one site we asked the EPA, we asked the state, we asked the EPA, we asked the state, how many times, I can't count, for them to test for dioxin like PCB's. EPA says talk to the state. The state doesn't have funding. We go around and around. Finally the City of Bloomington agreed to test this property for dioxin like PCB's. Finally. And in talking to Mrs. Gibbs, attorney for IDEM, tonight, the test results are not clear because the level was too high.

Hugh Kaufman

You mean the detection limits were set too high?

David McKray

No. The level of PCB's was too high. So they needed a lower level to

Tom Alcamo

There was laboratory interference.

David McKray

Now this test has been underway for two months. Approximately. And my criticism is this, where do you go to get an answer for a really sound question. Which is, do we have dioxin like PCB's in this community. The report was written by the US EPA at a cost of 3 million dollars in 1984. Every known expert in the world participated in that report. Called the re assessment of dioxin. It's readable. It states the toxicity of this chemical. And every since that day I have persisted. Will you test for dioxin like PCB's at the Lemon Lane dump. There has not been any test. And it's been four years. And I find no excuse from anyone for not doing the test. There may be some results from this sample that is being tested at the expense of the City of Bloomington. Hopefully. These things are red flag. Now, I carried a compacitor foil from one of Leon sites into the Mayor in 1987. I put tissue around the end of it and I carried it into the Mayor, John Langley. Here's what one looks like. I wouldn't do that today. I knew there was a danger in 1987. And the odor hung around in the trunk of my car for a good many weeks. I'm concerned. I don't have multiple chemical sensitivity. And I'm concerned. We need testing for dioxin like PCB's. It will probably not happen. Unless someone really takes the bull by the horns. Let's find the truth. Let's deal with science and medicine. We don't need politicians. And we sure as hell don't need lawyers. Let's get the medical community involved. Let's get the right people so we get answers that are meaningful to these people. So we don't have the problems that we have had in the past. Now I know three sites. I'll report those sites. I can take you to those sites. And what I think we need as an audience is what will be done with that information when we give it to you. To the people that will then process that. What will be done.

Hugh Kaufman

Tom, you want to start

Tom Alcamo

Certainly. I think that Lemon Lane there was dioxin sampling done. In terms of the fish. We have not sampled for dioxin like PCB's. We view PCB's as driving the total PCB's. I understand that Mr. Griffin's property there is percent levels of PCB's on his property. We certainly think that's driving the major clean up more than dioxin like PCB's. And we need to remediate Mr. Griffin's property. And we've approached the state to that affect. I don't know about the other two sites here. The other is under the state voluntary clean up action. And we would like to see that site remediated soon.

David McKray

Would you tell the audience what the level of clean up is under the Indiana Department of Environmental Management's voluntary remediation program. Cause we have been hearing numbers 25 ppm, 50 ppm, 10 ppm. I think the level of the voluntary remediation program, which is a program that you do not have a remedial investigation feasible study, is .038 ppm.

Tom Alcamo

I don't know.

Unknown Man

I don't know the number right off the hand, but I do know we have a VRP guidance that actually has those numbers in there. There are lots of numbers for many different types of chemicals and contaminants in there.

David McKray

And I just want to say one thing. That's a well done report. And I don't know where EPA gets this number 10 ppm when I am seeing numbers from IDEM on a voluntary remediation basis. That means we don't analyze the risk. We just clean it up. At our .03 ppm. And I think I am right.

Tom Alcamo

You need to look at 40CFR761.61 in terms of the new TASKO regulations that have came out. Of course a 10 ppm PCB number there is deed restrictions and there needs to be a soil cover. In terms of unimpeded access and things like that, it has to be under 1 ppm. So that's where it is coming from.

David McKray

That's your number. But that's not their number.

Tom Alcamo

I can just say that is where that 10 came from. And in regards to Neal's dump. We are hoping to get it all under 1. That's our goal.

David McKray

One other point. Dioxin like PCB's. Please remember that name. And read the re assessment of Dioxins. It's 53 pages. It's not that difficult to read. And they are having trouble per reviewing the report. Because all of the experts of the world were used to draft the report. It's well done. The other thing is we need to clean up all of the contaminated sites as agreed in 1985. Westinghouse is coming in here and they want to clean up a little dab over here, and a little dab over there. They have forgotten their commitment which was to clean up 625,000 cubic yards of contaminated soil. And the reason they have forgotten that commitment is because when they agreed to do that they were in the incinerator business. As a matter of fact they were selling incinerators. In Naples, Florida and others communities. Using the Bloomington project as their model. Like we had an incinerator up going and working perfectly. It was a drawing. And once the incinerator business fell flat on it's face, guess what, so did the incinerator in Bloomington. They could not make money. So we need to clean up all of the sites. All of the contamination. That's not even negotiable. And we've been spending all of these years tearing down what they are going to clean up. And working with 25 ppm, 50 ppm. We need real science, real data, and we need to hold them to their commitment.

Hugh Kaufman

That 625,000 cubic yards. That's just Lemon Lane?

David McKray

That's all the sites.

Hugh Kaufman

All the sites that are presently being worked on?

David McKray

It's, I think, Neal's landfill is 220,000.

Tom Alcamo

300,00.

David McKray

320,000.

Tom Alcamo

Lemon Lane is 176,000 from the 1958 level. Bennett's dump is 55,000, Neal's dump is 14,000, and Winston Thomas is in the neighborhood of 60,000.

David McKray

But they need to clean the whole thing up.

Jim Cartmell

176,000 was an estimate.

Tom Alcamo

In 1958, when they started dumping compacitors. Anything under 1958.

Hugh Kaufman

Now you understand that this exercise, starting this process of identifying and dealing with other sites, is separate from those sites before Judge Dilland and his majestry.

David McKray

I understand that. But that's my question. When we identify these sites. Go to the time, trouble and effort, again. What do we know will be done with that information.

Hugh Kaufman

Well, obviously in those sites where remediation is required to protect the public health and environment, then we are starting all over again. Only doing it not the way it was started a dozen years ago. By having a consent agreement behind closed doors. But starting the process of dealing with and remediating to begin to minimize the public health and environmental impact of those sites.

David McKray

PCB's were brought to this plant in railroad tank cars. They also were brought to the plant in 55 gallon drums. The 55 gallon drums were given to the workers. And some of the oil within that drums used to kill weeds around their gardens. But the plan was a failure because they weren't bringing the barrels back. So they terminated the dispensing of 55 gallon drums to the workers. In 1971 and 1972, a scientist for Westinghouse who went nose to nose with the chairman of the board of Westinghouse, surveyed this entire area for PCB's. And if any of you have been to Hazeville, on the White River. He went all the way down to there measuring elevated PCB's in fish. Beyond the FDA recommended level. He was convinced that he would be prosecuted under the industrial secrets act if he revealed this information.

Tom Alcamo

It's that Munson?

David McKray

Teal Munson. And that report was science. He was a first class scientist. And he was an environmentalist. And it never saw the light of day. Until much, much later. That report is a good beginning place for documentation. And he identified the major dumps. He did not know about Lemon Lane, called the city dump. However, Westinghouse did know about it in 1957. The head of shipping went out to Lemon Lane. He identified dumping of PCB compacitors at Lemon Lane. And it was not discovered until 1981. There are accredibility problems with Westinghouse Electric Corporation.

Hugh Kaufman

I don't have any further questions at this time. But you'll be available when we come back?

David McKray

Yes.

Unknown Woman

It's apparent, as Leon talked, that a lot of the oil that came out of the compacitors either were soaked into the ground or burned on the pallet fires. To your knowledge can you talk about another _____ for that oil that I've heard about? And dumping out the weeds was one. I'm thinking about that I heard that some of oil was used to heat people's homes?

David McKray

Mixed with, well, I think Leon knows that.

Leon

It was mixed with Kerosene.

David McKray

It was hard to burn. But once it did get started, it roared. And they put it in transmissions.

Hugh Kaufman

I just want to make sure we do get to the map. Greg were you going to talk about that.

Mike Baker

I just have a comment concerning the time. I know we started late. And I know this is difficult. But it seems that we always struggle with three issues. One of them is the current progress of the consent decree sites. And what I call the past sins and issues that have never been resolved that are coming out here. And then we have sort of this renewed interest by EPA in new sites. And it's very difficult, for me, and I've only been involved in this since 1990, to keep all of this straight. And to keep people focused on what the intent of this meeting is, which is for new sites. And I think that there definitely needs to be additional meetings set aside for this issue specifically. And possibly some kind of meeting or public form for if there are other issues other than new sites, then there maybe needs to be a separate form for that. Because when I think they are mixed maybe some people out here could add to the new sites issue are never going to get a chance to do that. And I know it's hard. And I think part of the reason is there are so many people here that are wanting to deal with new and old issues. Is because maybe some of us have indicated that we believe that the EPA does listen differently than they did in 1985. And I don's see John Foster here. But John got me involved in this issue. But I wish he was here so that I could thank him. But I know that he has made several field trips with Tom Alcamo to some of the sites and pointed out some discrepancies. Since he was personally involved in covering some of the sites. And I know that he has indicated to me that EPA has been very receptive to that new information. And has taken some additional testing and has added some additional site work because of his knowledge. So I think there is a little hope, maybe not a lot. But there is a little hope that EPA is turning a different ear. And is receptive to some new information. I just want to make sure that there is enough forums for all three issues. And I think they need to be separate. We've been here since a little after 7:00, and we've spent about 35-40 minutes actually talking about new sites. I'm not saying that the other issues aren't extremely important, but there might be some people here that might have some information about some new sites that may not get a chance to talk.

Michael List

There are. They are waiting to talk. Mick, are you going to talk about this map?

Mick

No, I'm not going to talk at all. But I'd like Jim Cartmell to talk about specific sites that you all probably need to know about. He's spent years and years researching these sites. He knows a lot more about them than I do. I think maybe Greg can talk about the map. Maybe Jim too, I don't know.

Hugh Kaufman

For general purposes, as I said in the beginning, the door doesn't close tonight. This is just the beginning of dealing with, identifying sites that are not being controlled. I don't want anyone to feel that if they haven't provided all their information tonight that the door is closed. This is the beginning of the process.

Unknown Man

I hope I'm not drifting too far off Mike, but what's a new site? This map here was put together in 1985 1986.

Hugh Kaufman

Sites not covered by the consent agreement which is before a judge.

Greg

Thank you very much. Because that is what we need the EPA to do. Is to grant the citizens of this community intervener status by going before the Judge, ask Dilland, who has not ideal about all these other sites. And saying, we as the EPA screwed up when we went before you back in 1984-85 and you ask us, the consent decree parties, is this all the sites we have to deal with. That was Judge Dilland's question. And then in unison the city, the county, the state, and the EPA, along with CBS Westinghouse all nodded their heads and said yes, these are the only sites. They have discovered Fell Iron and Metal. They have discovered the drying beds at Winston Thomas. They have discovered the Westinghouse site itself. We don't have trouble coming up except the general population dying off and growing old coming up and telling you where other sites are. We need to become a part of the process. And then I think the temperature will go down as far as the heat. We have been denied from day one. The EPA, the state, the county, and the city, as well as Westinghouse ignored this and other information since 1979 as to where all of this stuff was going on.

Hugh Kaufman

First of all, the purpose of this is not to diminish the heat. The purpose of this is to solve problems. I think one of the things Tom and I talked about is there is absolutely nothing wrong, nor should you feel inhibited to ask hard questions. Or say we want this or we want that. I'm not here to diminish heat or your anger on the way things were handled a dozen years ago. We are here to continue the process of solving this problem. Based on my limited experience. A problem of the magnitude of Bloomington, Indiana, with a tremendous amount of contamination that is occurred here is not going to be solved overnight. All we can do is continue to give more momentum, when we have the opportunity to do it, to continuing to solve this problem. And at the same time, educating more of the public as we do that so that this type of thing doesn't continue to happen. That's all we can do. We wish we could do more. The young lady came up and said I think the whole world needs a RIFS. I don't think there is a person in the room that doesn't agree that that is true. But we can't do that. But what we can do is continue the momentum of problem solving. But I don't want you to feel from my part, or Tom's part, that the purpose of this is to diminish heat. The second issue, is we are not in the retribution business. I will frankly admit that a number of people in the government screwed up bad, in regards to Bloomington. I've said it in public before. This is true. But I want to use my energies in continuing the momentum and expanding on the momentum.

Greg

Directly to you sir, problem solving. We keep getting down to we don't have the money. To open up this consent decree, which by the way the consent decree is being used _______ at this point. If you will please bring this to the attention to Judge Dilland. There are great many other sites. Some of which have been found by the EPA, the county, and the city, I suppose. Because they were too huge to ignore. Fell Iron and Metal. A Westinghouse plant site. Please inform him that when everybody nodded their head yes, they were wrong. There are a great many more than six sites. And let's get down to ought to pay this. Which is Westinghouse and David Letterman. They need to open up the checkbook and pay for this mess they have caused. That map has been with me, hitchhiking, for eleven years. Frankly, we need to update our list. And probably stick a lot more pins. They use to be orange and red. And little black flags on certain kind of deals. And everything else. And get this list put together properly.

Katie Wolf

I was born and raised in Bloomington. Family has been here for a long time. My Dad started out as a City Cop. And that didn't work out. And he went on and worked for Ralph Rogers Construction. That's where the money was at. I remember as a kid, that he would come home after working in the sewers around IU and the City. Which everyone knows that the PCB's were poured down the drains. And he would come home looking like he had been sunburned severely. He would suffer from skin rashes. And still has that today. Time goes on, I grew up and had kids of my own. We moved to a house on the West side of town. Out past the airport. Had a Well. Thought that was great. Found out later that we were being poisoned from our Well water. I am personally interested in more information on the Wells that are further out of the City limits than the ones that have been spoken about here today. These are ones out past the airport. I wasn't the only one with the contaminated Well. I've read articles about a family that had a Well out on Cave Road. And one on Woodyard Road that also had problems. We also suffered from a lot of health problems. I had a child that was born with liver problems. He suffered. He couldn't get over it. I was breast feeding. And he didn't thrive. And he didn't grow. And he continued to be yellow. And he had to go to the hospital everyday for tests. They poked him so many times in the heel. That was wait they did for an infant. That they put Band-Aids on it. And when they replaced the bandages from one day to another, it ripped the skin right off. We were sick until we moved from there. We also had been a part of that Well test, by the way. People came by, wanted a water sample. We never knew what it was for. I was pretty young then and I didn't really know a lot about it. We were really ill. I was really sick. I was a young mother in my 20's on a lot of drugs. My Doctors couldn't find out what was wrong. Until I moved and I got on City water. And as time went on my health came back and I got better. And then I got into school. And started reading up on information that was out on PCB's. And realized that we hadn't been informed about our well. It was obvious. And then time went on. It's kind of a family history thing. Because our family has been affected in so many ways. My brother worked for Snidigers(?) Construction Company. When the Westinghouse plant was being excavated. This has not been that many years ago. 1987-88. He was part of the local crew that was hired to make a little extra money. They did the work at night. He said there were two other trucking companies that were from out of town that came in. They excavated the soil that was right off the Westinghouse loading dock. The trucks that were from out of town put white stuff in their trucks. They were plastic lined. They loaded up the dirt and they loaded it off. And there was never any information released to the public about this. Until later on, there was a meeting held. And I think it was over at the Carpenters Hall. And they said it was 100% PCB's. These were guys that were out there in just their regular clothes. My brother sit at the site on his butt and had his dinner. Rubbed his hands on his legs. He had a rash on his legs and butt until he died. Every time he took a shower and his skin heated up, he would get a rash, and he would scratch, until he bleed. He suffered with a lot of other things. You got to wonder whether he was exposed to PCB's. Since he was in a pit 100%. Like I said, this is a family history. And not just mine. I want to know. I think we deserve to know the truth about what we are living in. What the damages are. We need to know about our water, in all compacities. The Wells, the Lakes. And we need a clinic. We need somebody here to help us with these issues. These are not just the workers. And, of course, they have suffered probably more than anyone. But there are other people that are just people that live here that encounter this stuff on an everyday basis. They don't know that they are in it. People in their gardens with sludge. People like us that was drinking Well water, that had no idea. Workers in the sewers that have no idea that sewers are contaminated with chemicals being pored down the drains. It's a big community problem. And I personally don't know if any of this digging up business is helping anything at all. Because it just digs it up and moves it around and makes it a problem for someone else. It doesn't keep the water out of these springs. And out of these wells. That stuff is there. And only God can recover it. I'm really frustrated and angry that we have to be here again tonight, after all of this time.

Hugh Kaufman

In 1987-88?

Unknown Woman

(CAN'T HEAR HER) Dug up parts of their property. At night. Nobody told them.

Katie Wolf

Snidigers did. After this was reported that it was PCB's they went in and had all the people at their company sign an agreement that they hadn't been injured at the site.

Hugh Kaufman

Did everyone sign that?

Katie Wolf

Yes. They weren't cut and bruised. And they didn't understand. They weren't thinking of physical injuries. Not inter bodily injuries. Even though there were rashes. And like I said, my father brought it home to us, on his clothes. My brother took it home to his family, on his clothes. He didn't know.

Hugh Kaufman

Mick, weren't their requirements at that time. Under both RICRA and TOSCA?

Unknown Woman

They did anyway.

Michael List

I think Jim would like to give you some information.

Jim Cartmell

I have a lot of information.

Hugh Kaufman

Remember you don't have to give it all tonight.

Jim Cartmell

More than two decades in negligence that has occurred already is not going to be corrected by whatever happens from this point. And it's important for people to realize that. You don't take 20 years of exposure, that's not going to be corrected by now.

Hugh Kaufman

That's true.

Jim Cartmell

The other thing is, people might want to get in touch with you privately. We need a method to do that.

Hugh Kaufman

Tom and I are going to work this out when we come on the weekend. Because this is televised. And people may want to provide information.

Tom Alcamo

Are you talking e-mails? Or something to that effect?

Jim Cartmell

No. There may be people in the community that have information that don't want to go public.

Hugh Kaufman

We are going to set up a system for that. To provide confidentiality.

Tom Alcamo

Maybe you can give out your e-mail.

Jim Cartmell

Your phone number? Or whatever?

Hugh Kaufman

I would rather do stuff here and talk to people, than get flooded with that. Because of the issue raised, which is potential confidentiality.

Mick Harrison

For the people may want to say something tonight. Or have information for you. Do you mind if I give them my phone number? Then I can forward it to you?

Anyone who has information to give to Mr. Kaufman, or to EPA, or region 5 on other sites, and doesn't know how to contact him directly. Or doesn't want to do it openly. If you want to go through me you are welcome to. Mick Harrison, call me at 606-986-5518. Leave a message there. I will get back to you. I can keep your information in confidence if you need that done. And I'm sure Mr. Kaufman can do the same.

Jim Cartmell

Katie was talking about Wells. The only Wells I personally know of have never been tested. Including the one I drink out of for 10 years. And it's still never been tested. And our Wells is apparently connected by dye trace to Lemon Lane. Within a half mile of Lemon Lane. And to bat clean up a little bit. The overhead projector isn't going to show everything I intended to show here. But anyway. I want to give an overview what kind of sites there are and what has or has not been done to investigate them. Other than reporting some of the information about the sites, and many, not all of the sites, that have been reported information that has been reported about what has been done is largely nothing. It appears the clean up strategy for these sites has been to let exposure occur until is dispersed into the environment. Up to this point anyway. Hopefully that will change. It's been 40 to 25 years since the dumping that occurred here. It's more than 25 years that Westinghouse new about it and didn't tell anybody. They were tracking this right up from the dumps and didn't tell anybody. It's been more than 20 years since PCB's were publicly identified as a problem here. And I spent a couple of years in the mid 80's and thousands of hours involved in the PCB issue. And I tried to compiled first person accounts of ëthey dumped it there', ëthey saw it there', and in addition to sites that I discovered on my own. And collected a list of more than 200 first person accounts. Which essentially nothing has been done about. And many of those were verified by the physical presents of PCB's. And they still remain there and still nobody has done anything about them. When I was looking for sites. By any means. I quit. Because I thought Bloomington was a very dangerous place to live. And it was obvious to me that the people who had the responsibility to protect our health, weren't going to do it. And stuff is distributed all over. There is all kinds of people to talk to that have never been talked to. About what they did, or where they did it. And there is thousands of sites in this. And many, if not most, won't be identified. Because no one is going to look for it. And the distribution of PCB material in this community is much more widespread than it acknowledged or understood. For instant, the city chemist tried to determine the nature and extent of contamination here. He was walking around Bloomington testing places. He, by the way, got fired for his activities along those lines. And he tested a mud puddle across from the Blue Bird, which is a local bar here that's right off the square, and got 19 ppm.

Hugh Kaufman

Was this published information?

Jim Cartmell

No.

Hugh Kaufman

How do we know this? Do we know this Tom?

Jim Cartmell

The city chemist, David Shock, and Ron Smith.

Hugh Kaufman

And he's got the test data, for that puddle, for example?

Jim Cartmell

I believe so. It should be in the test records. I think I have actually seen it.

Hugh Kaufman

Is he still in this area?

Jim Cartmell

Well, in fact, David Shock and Ron Smith were going around testing all kinds of places. The City told them not to tell anybody, so they didn't.

Hugh Kaufman

Who in the city told them not to test?

Jim Cartmell

Rick People, I believe. Some of the other utility service board were involved in that. Like Mike Phillips. You would have to talk to them to get the whole story about how that occurred. For instance, when I got involved - I didn't get involved until after EPA announced what they stated was the largest settlement in the history of the EPA. And they stated it was a comprehensive solution to the PCB problem here. And I thought, well, a comprehensive solution is going to involve knowing the nature and extent of the problem, and what you can do about it. And so I set about doing that. And I was very disappointed to learn that it hadn't been done, and apparently there was not intention of ever doing it.

Hugh Kaufman

Did you know Mick at the