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Citizens Information Committee
Minutes of Public Meeting
February 3, 1998
Bloomington, Indiana
Attendees:
George Hegeman, M.C. Health Dept.
Derrick Kimbrough, EPA
Tom Alcamo, EPA
Flynn Picardl
Diane Henshal
Mitch Rice, Sec'y
Jim Cartmell
Scott Hanson, IDEM
Mike Baker, COPA
Larime Wilson
Dawn Hewitt, Sassafras Audubon
Derick Kimbrough, EPA
Dan Sparks, USFW
Corrections of Minutes
Corrections of the minutes
(November)
Jim Cartmell
At the last meeting, John Langley stated that the Magistrate was impressed
by the remediation work done at Winston-Thomas. I asked, was he impressed
by the 22 years of a lack of action, of not yet having an adequate fence
around the site? Was he intentionally misled, did no one tell him about
this, or was he just impressed anyway? How can he be impressed by such inaction
at the sites? The public needs to know whether he was misled or if he is
impressed with our lack of cleanup, in which case we are in trouble.
I have a 1983 letter from the State Board of Health that states that when
the fence was built around Neal's Landfill, they hit capacitors. They moved
the fence back, and they still hit capacitors. We know that the contamination
extends beyond the fencing.
Tom Alcamo
When the remedy is done out there we will deal with that issue, case closed.
The Judge may have been misled during the visit to the sites, but we have
supplied him with all the necessary information, he is not misled now.
Jim Cartmell
I know that you will do your best, but I am pointing out the kind of negligence
and malfeasance on the part of the Parties up to this point. Nothing in
the past gives us any reason to believe that you will do a good job this
time.
One of the people living next to Lemon Lane had his property tested in 1995,
and they found 3500 ppm PCBs. Here is a letter from him to the EPA dated
1987 asking if there is a health danger to his family. The EPA did not reply
or do anything.
(December)
Jim Cartmell
This is the initial baseline remedial measures that were supposed to be
accomplished for Lemon Lane, issued in 1983. It says to put a fence around
the Illinois Central Springs. It took 15 years to do this. Dan Hopkins said,
"Well, what's the point?" The point is that this kind of negligence
and malfeasance is ridiculous. Again, why should we trust you now, when
you have been so negligent in the past?
John Langley
Why are you on a search for the guilty?
Jim Cartmell
The public wants to know if the Parties are protecting the public health,
and they especially want to know when they are not. At the last meeting,
I told Dan Hopkins that I can not find the
Administrative Record for the sites. He said that there was no requirement
for an administrative record. Now this is an EPA fact sheet from 1990, written
by Dan Hopkins. It says that once the case was settled (by the signing the
Consent Decree), the administrative record became public
under the Freedom of Information Act, and was deposited for viewing in the
public repository. I still want to see the Administrative Record. It is
not at Public Library, in the Repository, as stated in this document, written
by Dan Hopkins. In the last meeting he said there is no Administrative
Record. Which one is correct?
Tom Alcamo
I will ask Dan Hopkins to clarify this point.
Jim Cartmell
Truth is, I have never gotten any record that I have asked for from the
EPA that I have asked for.
George Hegeman
That's a pretty broad statement.
Jim Cartmell
Well, let's talk about the last document I asked for, the Responsiveness
Summary to the public comments from last year's DOJ meeting. I have been
asking since September 1997 for that. Dan Hopkins has said he would provide
it through the Repository. It is still not there. The historical use of
Lemon Lane as portrayed by Westinghouse was not the actual historical use
of the site. EPA has maintained the southwest corner of Lemon Lane was where
the heaviest area of contamination was. The testing shows very little on
the southwest corner, in fact the highest numbers found was along the north
side near the filled in sinkhole. I have pictures showing where the capacitors
were dumped, and it is not the SW corner.
John Langley
I have pictures showing capacitors on the SW corner.
Jim Cartmell
That is because they were moved there during grading. They were not historically
dumped there. Here are two maps, one from when the dump was opened, the
other from when it was closed. Both show vegetation at the southwest corner.
This area was never used as an active dumping area. The capacitors were
dumped in the middle and to the north, the PCBs were drained, and then the
casings were bulldozed to the edges, including the southwest corner.
John Langley
I have aerial photos from 1965 and 1972 that we used to determine the active
areas.
Tom Alcamo
We have begun work on the Interim Storage Facility, and it should be completed
by March 1. The contaminated materials are being shipped to a TSCA landfill
in Michigan.
In regards to the EE/CA (for Winston-Thomas), I recently got some comments
from CBS. I was ready to finalize the EE/CA, and I am not sure what I am
going to do with it, whether I will open it to public comment. CBS's comments
have to do with local disposal. CBS has also mentioned that there might
be a delay in regards to the final cleanup. We (the EPA) and the other governmental
bodies are vehemently opposed to further delay. We will have a public meeting
in mid-March, and we are looking at off-site disposal of the 60,000 cubic
yards of material. If CBS does not implement the remedy, we will have to
go before the Judge We hope to mobilize in
mid-May to begin the cleanup. But we may have to locate the material in
the Bloomington area. Our preferred option is a commercial permitted TSCA
site. The Judge has closed the hearings to the public. I will place his
written comments from the Dec 15, 1997 meeting in the Repository. He also
said that there will be only one public comment period for all the sites.
The Company (Westinghouse) is now known as CBS. They retain the liability
for the PCBs, the Judge affirmed this in court.
Jim Cartmell
Well, there is some question about liability here, and whether Westinghouse/CBS
is really going to be held liable. In the Consent Decree, there is a provision
that is Westinghouse's net value fell below a certain point, they would
have to post a cash bond to assure the work here is done. This happened,
as laid out in the Consent Decree, but nothing was done to enforce the provision.
How can we be assured that they will be held liable 30 years in the future,
if they are not held to the Consent Decree in the past?
Mike Baker
When we asked EPA about this, Dan Hopkins said that the case was with the
Justice Dept. We have heard nothing since then. Justice could be done with
its investigation, we do not know.
Tom Alcamo
I will check on this.
Mike Baker
I talked with Magistrate Foster, and he detailed why the public can not
be admitted to the meetings. He has been watching the CIC tapes, and he
welcomes comments from the public. I urge the public to express its concerns
either through the City, the County, or directly to the Magistrate.
Tom Alcamo
At the last meeting with the Judge, we made our case that even though the
site at Neal's Landfill looks good with grass growing and all, it is not
a safe or secure site. At a subsequent meeting he asked us to look at four
options for disposal.
1. Removal to an accredited TSCA landfill out of state.
2. A TSCA/RCRA cell at Bottom Road.
3. A TSCA/RCRA cell at Neal's Landfill
4. Putting a liner on top of Neal's Landfill, and dump all the contaminated
material from the other sites on this liner, and then cap it. This seems
to be the Judge's preferred option.
The EPA is vehemently opposed this last option, and on Feb. 5 we will be
presenting to the Judge why we feel this is not a good option. He has questioned
whether it is necessary to have a permit to do this. We feel that there
must be permitting done, and another problem with this "baggy"
option is that it can accept only 175,000 cubic yards of material. This
would of course limit our options as to excavation, with Winston-Thomas
alone using 60,000 cubic yards. All the governmental Parties, and perhaps
even Westinghouse, prefers shipping to an out of state permitted landfill.
The EPA will not limit the excavation of the sites according to a limit
set
by CBS, that they will do only so much. We must base our decisions on what
is protective of human health and the environment. On Feb 5, 1998, we will
be submitting a joint sampling plan for the sites. At Neal's CBS wants to
sample only in the southeast corner, where the material is getting wet due
to dam. They want to do only 13 borings there for PCBs only. We have set
up a grid for the whole site, and intend to do additional borings, paid
for by the EPA. We do not think that there will be a complete excavation
there, and we are looking for hotspots. We are also concerned about the
water treatment system at Neal's Landfill, and the bypass around the treatment
system. There has been no storm water sampling at Neal's Landfill. As I
stated, we feel this option at Neal's could be catastrophic, and we will
be presenting data to that effect at the Feb 5 meeting.
David Porter
Why do you call it a landfill, is this what is confusing the Judge.
Tom Alcamo
It is called a landfill in the site description.
David Porter
It is hills and dales, not a flat, engineered landfill site. Why would the
Judges consider putting a baggy on this area, does he know what it looks
like?
Tom Alcamo
We have made this clear to the Judge. Westinghouse has proposed geotechnical
studies to determine where the sinkholes and caves are there on the site,
but we just do not think this is possible. We hope that the data we present
to the Judge will show him that this option should be on the table, but
cost is a factor, and this is the cheapest option.
Larime Wilson
If the EPA has a preferred option (out of state disposal at a permitted
landfill), why don't you just issue an action order to have this done?
Tom Alcamo
If the Consent Decree were thrown out, we could do this, but we are at present
bound by it. We would like to see the Consent Decree gone, it would give
us a different power structure here, but it is still in effect, and we are
working within it.
Larime Wilson
It seems that Judge Dillon has said let's excavate all this stuff and deal
with it. Why do we have to do this sampling and consider hotspot removal
if the Consent Decree and Judge Dillon agree that full excavation is the
correct option?
Tom Alcamo
Magistrate Foster wants us to go through this process.
Jim Cartmell
You have stated that you are bound by the terms of the Consent Decree. Let
me quote from the Consent Decree: "Any alternative remedy must achieve
a level of removal and destruction of PCBs and material contaminated with
PCBs equal or greater than the degree and extent of removal and destruction
of PCBs provided by this Consent Decree equal to the extent of destruction
by the Incinerator." The Incinerator had a destruction capability of
99.99 percent, landfilling has a destruction capability of zero. These are
the terms of the Consent Decree, and you are not following them.
Tom Alcamo
We will be doing ROD amendments that will justify our changes. You have
your legal rights. There will be a public comment period.
Larime Wilson
You are negotiating the removal levels away one by one, even though they
are spelled out in the Consent Decree.
Mike Baker
Four years ago when we moved away from incineration, the whole process of
how we are doing this changed, legal or not.
Jim Cartmell
No, in the Consent Decree it states that Westinghouse can propose alternative
technologies, which they did. It does not say they can change the extent
of the cleanup or the degree of destruction. It says that both must remain
the same.
Mike Baker
My point is that though this is all true, we are in a crisis situation,
we need to act now to influence the outcome.
David Porter
If we are not following the Consent Decree, then maybe we need to stop calling
it the Consent Decree, because it is confusing to all when you say we are
bound by the Consent Decree, then all your plans violate the what it in
the Decree. If the rules have changed, you need to write down what the new
rules are so we can see if they are being followed.
Mike Baker
In regards the Bottom Road site, we have a situation where 8 of the 10 monitoring
wells intersect major waterflows, it is on a flood plain, and the sand and
gravel areas have not been characterized. SENES, one of the top risk assessment
companies in the US has sent us a report detailing
why capping in place or putting the material at Bottom Road or any other
site on Monroe County Karst does not make sense. We need to supply the Judge
with factual material pointing this out.
Tom Alcamo
He makes a valid point. We are going to have all the sampling done and evaluated
by June and decisions will be made. There will be a public comment period,
I expect there will be real movement in the next few months, and decisions
will be made.
David Porter
What will you do if you think the remedies chosen are not adequate?
Tom Alcamo
If we feel that the remedies do not protect human health and the environment,
we will appeal. If it goes that route, so be it.
Mike Baker
I know that the City and State have indicated that if certain remedies are
chosen, they will probably appeal. I don't think the Court will set itself
up to be appealed, but you never know.
Larime Wilson
Have you told the Judge that you would like to public to be able to attendthe
meetings.
Dan Sparks
At the last meeting with the Judge, Dan Hopkins got up and asked the Judge
if the public could attend the meetings.
Larime Wilson
When will the EE/CA comment period occur?
Tom Alcamo
We should have this ready for comment in the next few weeks. As I indicated
before, CBS wants to delay the process so that they can send the Winston-Thomas
material to a local disposal option (Neal's or Bottom Road). We oppose this.
We support offsite disposal.
Larime Wilson
Has the EcoLogic process been analyzed in the EE/CA? It seems that the only
objection is that it costs too much.
Tom Alcamo
Like it or not, I have to take cost into consideration.
Jim Cartmell
At the last meeting it was asked if you are going to do an RIFS (Remedial
Investigation Feasibility Study) for the sites. You seemed to reply in the
affirmative, is this still the case?
Tom Alcamo
No, we will probably not.
Jim Cartmell
You guys are scamming all the way. You can not follow your own guidelines.
You have claimed for years that you did not need to do an RIFS as you are
doing ROD amendments. Yet here is a paper from 1982 from the EPA saying
that an RIFS had been started for Neal's.
David Porter
I would like to have the confidence that you guys are dedicated to protecting
the citizens and the environment, not just doing the bidding of the Judge!
Tom Alcomo
We are under orders from the Judge, we could be held in contempt and jailed.
David Porter
I don't care if you are jailed, I care that you are doing the right thing,
protecting the citizens.
Larime Wilson
In the November meeting with the Judge, he said we are going to haul all
this stuff somewhere. So why are we doing an EE/CA, (which considers alternative
remedies) if the remedy is already a foregone conclusion. Isn't this a waste
of time and money?
Jim Cartmell
The Judge's job is to enforce the law, not to circumvent it. Has any of
the Parties pointed out to the Judge that on page 90 of the Consent Decree
that the level of removal of any new remedy must be equal that outlined
in the Decree? Have you said to the Judge you are bound by this Decree,
and have to achieve this level?
Dan Sparks
The Judge can supercede that.
Jim Carmell
That is not the point, I am asking if you have told him about this provision,
and that you feel you need to follow it.
Dan Sparks
When the one of the governmental parties mentioned that there are 650,000
cubic yards total to dispose of, the Judge said, well then we can go back
to the incinerator option.
Larime Wilson
What sampling is to be done by June?
Tom Alcamo
All results will be in by June. CBS will be sampling Richland Creek, Stout's
Creek and Conard's Branch. This will include fish and crayfish studies.
CBS has agreed to do this sampling, but we are not in agreement about Neal's
Landfill. They want to bore 13 holes only in the Southeast corner where
there is evidence of water infiltration. The EPA is requesting that the
Judge order CBS to do 78 additional borings, and if they do not agree, EPA
will pay for them, in order to fully characterize the site.
David Porter
You are characterizing the site because you do not intend to clean it all
up?
Tom Alcamo
The possibility exists that we will not excavate all of Neal's Landfill.
We are looking at hotspot removal. We are hoping to begin sampling in mid-March.
Jim Cartmell
What are you sampling for?
Tom Alcamo
PCBs
Jim Cartmell
Not dioxin and dioxin like compounds?
Dan Sparks
Our fish studies have shown very low levels of dioxin contamination, while
we do have high levels of PCBs. PCBs are the contaminant of concern.
Larime Wilson
Are the parties satisfied with the sampling done at Lemon Lane? Is there
sufficient evidence for a good hotspot removal there?
Tom Alcomo
Yes, all the Parties have agreed.
Larime Wilson
In the past you have said you can go back and do sampling where we might
have missed something, but now it appears you will not. We have not even
sampled in the areas that are most likely to have high concentrations of
PCBs.
Mike Baker
Can you give us a conservative estimate of about how much material you expect
will excavated. Is it over or under 300,000 cubic yards?
Tom Alcomo
I have no data for Neal's as yet, but we have propose major excavation at
Lemon Lane.
Jim Cartmell
At the last meeting Dan Hopkins said about a quarter of the material at
Lemon Lane would be excavated.
Tom Alcomo
There will be some additional sampling outside the perimeter of Lemon Lane.
Larime Wilson
When will there be a public comment meeting?
John Langley
There will be one public comment period, but the Judge did not preclude
any of the Parties from holding their own public meetings.
Jim Carmell
I would like to point out the Mr. Ellis, the EPA attorney stated in Court
that the public process is an obstacle to the timing of this process.
David Porter
Why is this an ever changing process?
Tom Alcamo
You have not been in a meeting with the Magistrate. Every two weeks it is
a different fire drill, we do not know what he is going to require next.
Mike Baker
If you consider only the four options listed, and I don't agree that they
are the only rational options, then I can speak to that. I don't think it
makes sense to move the contamination from one part of the county to another,
especially in this karst territory. The only option of the four that makes
sense is shipping to an approved out of county landfill.
George Hegeman
I concur.
Larime Wilson
We do not like the idea of just hotspot removal. We have a Consent Decree
that calls for complete removal, and this is what should be done. We do
not have complete enough data to do adequate hotspot removal at Lemon Land
anyway.
Jim Cartmell
As I showed earlier, sampling was done according to Westinghouse's version
of historical data, which they fabricated. Most of the sampling was done
along the southwest corner, where no dumping occurred, while the center,
where most of the dumping and burning did occur, was very lightly sampled.
[Mr. Cartmell showed a series of maps and photos that showed no dumping
had occurred at the southwest corner. Capacitors that ended up at the southwest
corner were bulldozed there.]
The highest readings for PCBs were found along the south side and the southeast
corner.
Mike Baker
Is it your point that sampling was not done where the capacitors were actually
dumped?
Jim Cartmell
Yes, the Southwest corner, where most of the sampling was concentrated,
was about the only spot that capacitors were not dumped. The use of a magnetometer
did not show where the capacitors really were, Dan Hopkins admitted this
in a meeting in October, 1996. For one thing GE dumped
large amounts of metal in the dump, and this would skew the findings. Besides
the PCBs would be associated with the guts of the capacitors, not the housings.
The capacitors were emptied, the PCBs were spilled out, the guts, copper
and aluminum, were recycled, then the housings were
bulldozed to the edges. PCBs are distributed throughout Lemon Lane, and
I want you cleanup the whole dump, and there are PCBs everywhere, not just
where you found capacitor housings. There were tons PCB contaminated dirt
and sawdust that were dumped, none of which can be found by a magnetometer.
There were other RCRA contaminants of concern that were dumped at both Lemon
Land and Neal's Landfill, and many of them were burned, creating even more
dangerous compounds.
Tom Alcamo
If Lemon Lane is capped, and there is a water treatment at Illinois Central
Springs, where is the exposure pathway?
George Hegeman
With karst typography, you never know where the water is really going.
Jim Cartmell
When the dye trace studies were done, a good portion of the dye was not
recovered. Where did it go? And karst is dynamic, it can change over the
years.
Larime Wilson
Where is the perimeter sampling to be done at Lemon Lane?
John Langley
There will be testing done along the East and Northeast sides.
Jim Cartmell
When the EPA sampled for dioxin, they did so only in the sinkhole (that
leads to Illinois Central Springs). There was extensive burning of PCBs
year after year, tons of PCBs were burned, people reported having to close
their doors and windows to keep the smoke out. The dioxin created by this
burning would be near the surface, not deep in the sinkhole where the EPA
sampled. There are numerous contaminants of concern that are surely present,
but you have not tested for them, such as co-planer PCBs, dibenzo-furans,
trichlorobenzene, and dioxin.
Mike Baker
If there is evidence of material outside the metes and bounds of the Consent
Decree, will it be excavated?
Tom Alcamo
If we find capacitors or other material outside of the perimeter during
excavation, we will go after it.
Larime Wilson
Who at the State is now in charge of overseeing the cleanup?
Scott Hanson
Resa Ramsey is taking care of Winston-Thomas, and I am in charge of the
rest of the projects.
Jim Carmell
Who was the onsite coordinator at Winston-Thomas? Why was there no warning
to the public, or a ceasing of the work when the caustic clouds were reported
from the use of lime to dry the sludge from the digesters? People next door
at the recycling center next door reported respiratory distress and damage
to the finish on their cars from the clouds.
Next Meeting
March 31, 1998 at 7:00 p.m. |
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