| |
Citizens Information Committee
Minutes of Public Meeting
December 9, 1996
Bloomington, Indiana
Attendees:
Dan Hopkins, EPA
George Hegeman, Monroe County Health Dept.
Mick Harrison
Flynn Picardl
Resa Ramsey, IDEM
David Porter
Lou Schwitzer, COPA
Dawn Hewitt, SAS
Michael List, Chair
Mitch Rice, Sec'y
Jim Cartmell
Larime Wilson
Deb Backus
Diane Henshal
Scott Hanson, IDEM
Derrick Kimbrough, EPA
Sona Chambers, EarthTech
Corrections
Resa Ramsey
The EPA's risk assessor was not at the last meeting (even though she was
in town at the time) because she did not feel it was appropriate to attend
the meeting without the Project Manager in attendance. I also said that
Dan was transitioning out of the job of Project Manager, not that he was
already finished.
Rainfall
David Porter
At the last meeting it was stated by John Langley that the Magistrate was
impressed by the reduction in flow at Illinois Central Springs as a result
of the capping and earthwork by Westinghouse at Lemon Lane. I would like
to see it put on the record that this has been the driest year since 1988,
and the resultant low flow could be just due to fact that there is less
water, rather than Westinghouse's earth moving.
Tom Alcamo
The Magistrate does have access to the rainfall records, and I am sure that
he will note the low rainfall this year.
New Project Manager
Dan Hopkins
I am transitioning to new job within the EPA, and would like to introduce
the new Project Manager, Tom Alcamo. My leaving, although coincident with
the Judge's new orders, is not related.
The Judge issued two orders at the last meeting, and they have made Tom's
job even harder than what we were trying to accomplish.
All the data from the various sites has to be collected, and be ready for
review by June of 1998, and that the cleanup of all the sites must be accomplished
by the end of 1999.
This means that in 1998 we will have to submit all our testing data, finish
Phase II at Winston-Thomas, begin cleanup at Lemon Lane, and cleanup one
other site, presumably Neal's Dump.
Tom Alcamo
At Region V we are ready to commit the resources to do the job as the Judge
has ordered. This will be difficult, the average Superfund site takes, from
discovery to completion, about 10 years. But we are committed to meeting
the Judge's orders.
David Porter
The discovery occurred 10 years ago, but only a small portion of the contamination
has been cleaned up.
Tom Alcamo
We do have a lot of data collected from this period, and we will use it.
Dan Hopkins
The Judge decided that he did not want us to proceed sequentially on these
projects, he felt we were spending too much time discussing what was to
be done.
Tom Alcamo
We think we will be dealing with Neal's Dump and Lemon Lane in 1998, and
Neal's Landfill and Bennett's Quarry in 1999. We feel that the push from
the Judge is great, but it will be hard to accomplish everything on time.
Mick Harrison
Did anyone in particular recommend to the Judge that this new schedule be
instituted?
Dan Hopkins
No, it seems he came up with this himself.
Tom Alcamo
It is possible that we will need to go to the Judge and ask him to extend
the testing period in June, but our plans are to have everything completed
by then.
Dan Hopkins
We are assembling data from the three sites we have done testing on, and
we are identifying data gaps.
David Porter
Do you have rainfall records for the various sites?
Dan Hopkins
Only for Winston-Thomas. We do have the rainfall as collected at the Monroe
County Airport.
David Porter
But you must be aware of microvariations. You can have a tenth of an inch
at the airport, and it will rain 2 inches at Lemon Lane. You need to collect
rainfall data at each site.
Michael List
It seems that Westinghouse's response is that the only way to get the cleanup
done within the new timeframe is to cap the material and leave it in place.
How do you think the Judge will respond to this idea?
Dan Hopkins
From reading the transcript of the meeting, it seems the Judge feels that
we have already agreed to remove the contamination, now we should just go
about doing it. The Judge also appointed the Magistrate as a Special Master
in this case. The Magistrate asked us to meet him the next day to tour the
sites. He was given a presentation by Westinghouse, and then toured the
sites. At the end of the site tour he said that governmental parties should
show why the sites should not be capped and left. We have been preparing
to do this, and will make our case to the Magistrate next week.
George Hegeman
The EPA's historical position has been that capping is not a solution.
Jim Cartmell
Was the Magistrate advised that previous agreements amongst the parties
repeatedly rejected capping and leaving in place? Why are we in a position
of having to prove that the contamination must be excavated, when it was
already agreed (in the Consent Decree) that the material must be excavated?
Dan Hopkins
The Judge and the Magistrate are both aware of the history of the problems
here.
Jim Cartmell
My question was:
Did anyone tell the Magistrate that capping and leaving has been rejected
as a solution by the Parties? Did anyone say this to him when he asked the
governmental parties to prove why the sites should not be capped and left?
Dan Hopkins
The cap/leave scenario was not a position on his part, he was just asking
us to provide information as to why this would not work.
George Hegeman
This brings up a question, if this new concept (of capping and leaving in
place) is being considered: What is the status of the Consent Decree? Is
it out the window, or does it still have some legal force?
Larime Wilson
According to the papers from the Court, the Magistrate is to carry forth
the goals stated in the Consent Decree, which calls for removal down to
the 1958 level at Lemon Lane, not capping and leaving. For years we have
been held up from the actual cleanup because of articles in the Consent
Decree, now it is out the window.
Mick Harrison
What is the status of the Consent Decree? Now that the incinerator is out,
is the Consent Decree still binding on you? Is Westinghouse still the only
party that can propose a solution other than incineration?
Hasn't the Judge limited our options as to what remedies can be used by
setting this time limit?
Tom Alcamo
He has not limited the option. We will not select a remedy that does not
protect human health and the environment.
Michael List
What if the solution you pick can not be done by the year 2000?
Tom Alcamo
Then we will have go to the Judge and explain why it can not be done in
that time frame, it is that simple.
Larime Wilson
Just because incineration is no longer the remedy does not invalidate the
rest of the Consent Decree. The Decree is very clear that the contamination
is to be excavated. Just because what happens to the material after excavation
has changed, does not change the fact that the contaminated material must
be excavated.
Mick Harrison
The Consent Decree did envision the possibility of a change of remedy, and
Westinghouse must propose this new remedy. But I don't think it envisioned
a change in the scope of the cleanup. A change in what is to be done with
the material does not imply a change in the amount of material to be treated,
according to the provisions of the Consent Decree. This is why we are concerned
about the status of the Consent Decree, is it still binding on the Parties
and the Judge?
Tom Alcamo
What is the principle threat? This is our guiding principle for the cleanup.
If we did hotspot removal at Lemon Lane, and built an adequate water treatment
plant, then we could say that we removed the principle threat at Lemon Lane.
George Hegeman
How would you know that you removed the principle threat unless you dig
all the way to the 1958 level.
Jim Cartmell
What about the PCBs that have been detected at other springs? Karst changes
all the time, there is no way you can know where the water is going to go
to over time. If you leave all that contamination at Lemon Lane (and remove
only "hotspots"), the contamination remaining could easily escape
through the karst to other springs.
The only logical thing to do is fully excavate, and build water treatment
plants where PCBs are detected. Otherwise, we are leaving this problem for
future generations to solve.
Mick Harrison
Is EPA already committed to hotspot removal?
Tom Alcamo
No
Michael List
Why does the cost factor seem to be so important in this decision making.
It seems that this hotspot removal plan is driven mostly by cost factors.
Tom Alcamo
The EPA has list of 9 criteria by which a remedy is selected. One of them
is cost. The most important one is human and environmental safety.
Michael List
If you do hot spot removal, you do not know what you have left behind. You
have not done nearly enough sampling to know if you have found all the hotspots,
you could be leaving highly contaminated material behind. You could also
have areas that have just as much PCBs, but they are just more diffused.
If this solution is not money driven, why don't push to have it all removed,
as originally agreed in the Consent Decree? The only difference is that
Westinghouse will not be making money on incineration.
Tom Alcamo
With municipal landfills the EPA Superfund policy is generally not excavation,
but rather capping.
Mitch Rice
Though Lemon Lane does carry the name landfill, it was not constructed as
such. There are none of the safety features that are incorporated into a
modern landfill. In fact the site was a municipal dump, not a landfill.
Rather than garbage being buried in a logical and controlled manner, it
was burned and shoved around. It really does not constitute a landfill.
Michael List
What is the EPA's policy in regards to large collections of PCBs?
Tom Alcamo
They are usually excavated as a principle threat.
Larime Wilson
Is it usual to do only 30 samples for 11 acres of contamination?
Tom Alcamo
We may want to do more sampling.
Jim Cartmell
The PCB spill policy calls for sampling every 2 feet.
Dan Hopkins
What would you have us do?
Jim Cartmell
You have not even tested for contaminants of concern. I have seen no test
results for trichlorobenzene or tetrachlorobenzene, though they are closely
associated with PCBs. There has been very little testing for dibenzofurans
and dioxins. In every PCB fire that has been tested, large amounts of dibenzofurans
and dioxins have been found. In the New York fire, 2000ppm were found in
the soot. After all the burning of PCBs that occured at Lemon Lane Dump,
there are surely furans and dioxins in high numbers, but you do not test
for them.
Dan Hopkins
We tested for the whole range of volitiles at the Illinois Central Springs,
and for dioxins in the sinkholes (in Lemon Lane)
Jim Cartmell
For trichlorobenzene and tetrachlorobenzene? The results I saw showed tests
only for chlorobenzene.
In 1983, the EPA proposed doing 144 borings, as well as digging 22 trenches
to bedrock, in order to characterize the landfill.
In 1987 Westinghouse did 64 borings, but only tested the air, even though
the City was pushing hard to test for contaminants of concern. This plan
was abandoned when Westinghouse agreed to excavate the whole thing.
Now you have bored just 31 holes, and this based on historical evidence
and electromagnetic anomalies. Now you know that using the magnetometer
is inaccurate, because it was used to site the fence at Bennett's Quarry.
When you went to build the fence there, they ran into capacitors when they
drilled the holes. The fence was moved back, and more capacitors were found.
So this was found to be an inaccurate method of determining where the capacitors
are, yet 10 years later here we are using the same method to find capacitors
at Lemon Lane.
And your historical evidence had you convinced that the southwest corner
was a big hotspot, in fact you moved borings from other parts of the site
to the southwest corner. But it was the whole south side, not the corner
that was where the high numbers were found. You were wrong in your presumptions
there, and to me it seems that these two methods are not adequate to characterize
the site. More testing is certainly needed.
Dan Hopkins
You make a lot of good points. The thing is you are not going to get every
capacitor out of there.
Jim Cartmell
Well, certainly not, if you don't make them try.
Michael List
To do just 31 borings and think that you have found all the hotspots is
ridiculous.
You could go to the Judge and say, there is no way to fully protect health
and the environment other than to excavate the site, as has already been
agreed to by Westinghouse. Make them do it, Judge. You could certainly make
them remove all the capacitors down the 1958 level.
Jim Cartmell
At Fell's, you chiseled out bedrock.
Michael List
It is an inexplicable and ominous reluctance that EPA seems to have, to
make Westinghouse just do it.
Dan Hopkins
Though it may not be moving to you, to us, the way we do work at other sites
has meaning for us.
Lou Schwitzer
In that case, why have you never provided an RIFS, which would adequately
characterize the sites. We could not find the functional equivalent you
spoke of, even after we went through the 30 boxes of documents you provided.
You then said it was in an engineering study in the Judge's files. I spent
two days going through papers there, and we did not find it. There has never
been an RIFS or its functional equivalent that tells the community what
is going on here.
Westinghouse has negotiated an all time low price to ship and store (in
a RCRA landfill) the contaminated material. They should clean out all all
the capacitors at Lemon Lane, then move out to Neal's and dig till they
get all the capacitors there. Judge Dillon feels there is not that much
volume to deal with, he comes from coal country, where they are used to
moving large volumes of fill every day.
Dan Hopkins
You have all made about the same points, that we should excavate all the
materials, or increase the number of borings to adequately characterize
the site. We will take these ideas back and discuss them.
David Porter
Can you guarantee that the plant will last for 1000 years?
Michael List
He can't guarantee that no more PCBs will come out, but he could guarantee
take it down to the 1958 level.
David Porter
When you talk about building a treatment plant to stop the PCBs from getting
into the environment, and then won't discuss a time horizon for the life
of the plant, I think you are not being sensitive to the real problems and
issues.
Larime Wilson
It seems that Dan does not understand our perspective. He argues that because
water treatment is needed in either case, it is ok to leave behind all the
material not taken in the spot removal. Our point is that we do not know
how well, or for how long, water treatment will be effective. It is better
to get out all the material now, and to treat the residuals in the karst
with water treatment at any spring which showed PCB discharge.
Is there any governmental party that is willing to hold the parties to the
original scope of the cleanup? Resa, will the State do this?
Resa Ramsey
It is too preliminary to say that.
Larime Wilson
Too preliminary to say whether they should be held to the original agreement?
Mick Harrison
So the scope of the cleanup is on the table?
Resa Ramsey
Yes, we haven't determined anything yet, it's all on the table.
Who in the State would know about the status of the Consent Decree?
Resa Ramsey
One of our attorneys.
Mick Harrison
You could say that no one can discuss the scope, because it is spelled out
in the Consent Decree, and the Consent Decree is still in place.
Tom Alcamo
I don't think any decisions will be made at this meeting. We will present
our case as to why we think capping is not appropriate.
Mick Harrison
I don't want it capped. I want it taken out and destroyed. It may have to
be stored for a while before treatment, but many new technologies are being
tried. The army has invited all parties (including the citizens) for discussions
to pick a remedy for disposal of chemical weapons. They have been testing
several new technologies, and more are on the way. I want the PCBs taken
out and vaulted, if a safe technology has not yet emerged, and destroyed
when that technology is found. And Westinghouse should pay for it.
Larime Wilson
Has the EE/CA materialized?
Dan Hopkins
Yes, in the form of a draft. I expect to have it out to the community in
a week or two.
Tom Alcamo
We are working on an action memo right now for the material in the Interim
Storage Facility. All that is left is a sampling plan. The material will
be shipped out. Materials above 50ppm will go to a RCRA landfill, and the
less than 50ppm materials will go to a hazardous waste landfill.
This has been carved out of the EE/CA, allowing it to move along more quickly.
George Hegeman
What is the material in the Interim Storage Facility?
Dan Hopkins
Garbage from Monroe County Landfill, and stream sediments from the dredging
of Stout's and other creeks.
Tom Alcamo
This has been an issue for Westinghouse, they want to go out and do it right
away, and we are saying no, you have to let us issue our action memo, which
will be ready in January.
Larime Wilson
How can Westinghouse be out getting bids for removal of the Winston-Thomas
Phase II contaminants, when according to you, the remedy has not yet been
selected? The EE/CA is not complete, but they are already getting bidders.
How can this be?
Dan Hopkins
We have had a lot of talks with them about the cleanup, and we have identified
a lot of the materials that will be coming out of that facility. So to that
extent, yes, that has been discussed, and is sufficient for them to go forward
with their bids.
Jim Cartmell
Why is it that I can find no administrative record for any of the six Superfund
sites?
Dan Hopkins
There was no administrative record requirement pre-SERA.
Jim Cartmell
The administrative record that came with the amendment to the Consent Decree
to begin the work at Winston-Thomas has on the binding "Administrative
Record Update #1".
If this is the update, what I want to see is the document this is updating.
Dan Hopkins
For every action that we take, there is an administrative record. There
is one for Phase I, there is one for the West Side of Clear Creek.
Each time we make a decision that is inconsistent with the Consent Decree,
we have to develop a document explaining our position. This can be in an
Action Memo, or a ROD amendment. We could also do a non-time critical removal
action. For the four sites, I don't think we have made any decisions yet.
Tom Alcamo
We are working under the constraints of a legal document. Under the terms
of the Consent Decree, EPA's power is limited.
Lou Schwitzer
We have at COPA been working on a document that shows how many pounds of
PCBs came into Bloomington, and how many were shipped back out. This gives
us a number of tons of PCBs left in Bloomington. This document is available
on the COPA website.
Michael List
The next item on the agenda concerns how we might make our views know to
the Magistrate, so that he has some input from the community.
David Porter
You could make him an ex officio member of the CIC. He may not come to the
meetings, but he would get a copy of the minutes. He could also be officially
be invited to these meetings.
Mick Harrsion
There is a model for working out problems like this, that the Army is using
to deal with the destruction of chemical weapons. They work on a consensus
basis with stakeholders from a number of constituencies working together
for a solution. My clients, the Chemical Weapons Working Group, and the
Army are both happy with the process.
It would be a good model for working here. It essentially involves hiring
a facilitator who would conduct the sessions. I recommend that it be used
for whatever amendments to the ROD that you want to do, it would be easier
for you to have the community with you on a cleanup decision.
Dan Hopkins
We did explore this in 1994. But it did need a consensus of the Parties
to implement.
Sona Chambers
These are called Risk Advisory Boards in the EPA, and are modeled after
Citizens Advisory Committee. This group (the CIC) is informational only,
not advisory.
Mick Harrison
That is why I am suggesting this model (from the Army) as an addition to
the CIC, so that citizens can have meaningful input.
Mick Harrison
I realize that you guys don't really make the decision, it is your regional
administrator who does.
Tom Alcomo
We do have input and can effect the decision.
Mick Harrison
But he makes the decision, not you.
Dan Hopkins
But our administrator has not made a decision.
Mick Harrison
It has not been dictated from above that you will do a hotspot cleanup?
Tom Alcamo
No
Mick Harrison
You could also ask the Magistrate to let the citizens have a representative
ar the meetings, with a spot on the agenda to voice our point of view.
Tom Alcamo
I can do that.
Dan Hopkins
On Thursday we will meet with the Magistrate.
Tom Alcamo
We have a presentation to give the Magistrate that we think will make our
point, and counter Westinghouse's proposals.
Michael List
Will you communicate to the Magistrate the positions that you have heard
here tonight?
.
Tom Alcamo
I will.
Jim Cartmell
After 22 years, there is finally a contiguous fence around Winston-Thomas.
It might be short in some areas, but it does go all the way around. There
were years when the fence was cut, and there were trails through there.
Larime Wilson
Could you provide the responsiveness summary to the DOJ meeting?
Dan Hopkins
I can provide that.
Larime Wilson
Can you explain about how the landfills indemnify Westinghouse for the PCBs
that will be stored there.
Tom Alcamo
There is a monetary limit that they are indemnified to We would still go
after Westinghouse, if the landfill became a Superfund site.
Mick Harrison
Let me give Tom something to think about in the months to come
It seems that the EPA has been using ROD amendments to make small changes
in the
Consent Decree. But when it comes making a major change, like changing the
scope of the cleanup, you will have to do it by new remedy selection, with
an RIFS, and public comment, and a new ROD.
Tom Alcamo
That position is correct.
I hope I am wrong, but I think your superiors will be inclined to go with
a much less rigorous legal process than this.
Meeting Adjourned
Next Meeting:
Tuesday, January 13, 1998, 7:00 pm |
|
