Citizens Information Committee
Minutes of Public Meeting
December 5, 1996
Bloomington, Indiana
Attendees:
Dan Hopkins, EPA
Dave Novak, EPA
Michael List, Chair
Resa Ramsey, IDEM
Deb Backus, SPEA
John Langley, CBU
Iris Kiesling, City Council
Dan Sparks, FWS
Mike Baker, COPA
Sally Hegeman IU
George Hegeman Monroe County Health Board
Flynn Picardal, SPEA
Mitch Rice, COPA
Visitors:
Larami Wilson Joe Loop
Ombudsman
Dan Hopkins (DH)
I had a conference call with Mr. Martin. He wants to come in early January,
and rather than a big public meeting, to begin, he would like to meet with
small groups and individuals. This is to get a broad view of Bloomington.
After that we can schedule a larger public meeting. He also asked that if
anyone wants to meet independently with Mr. Martin, this can be scheduled.
Is there anyone here who knows of groups that want to meet with him. If
you want to schedule for meetings with him, you can just contact me, and
I will do this for you.
Michael List (ML)
If he does not want to meet with us in open meeting, perhaps we could meet
with him as group, but in closed meeting.
DH
I think he does not want to start with a big meeting
Mitch Rice (MR)
How do groups or individuals get hold of him? Do you have his 800 number?
DH
You can schedule through me or call his 800 number, I don't have it with
me tonight. [1-800-262-7937]
Mike Baker (MB)
When Mr. Martin comes to Bloomington, Copa will want to talk with him, and
we can provide an office space to do so for anyone who might want to meet
with him.
DH
The date will be in, I would guess, the first full week of January, the
week beginning on the 6th of January.
Sally Hegeman (SH)
The League of Women Voters will want to meet.
George Hegeman (GH)
The Health Board, but we have pretty good input on this, through the County.
MB
The Rotary may want to have input, I will put it before the committee. I
hope that he will be able to talk to a wide cross section of people.
John Langley (JL)
The Chamber of Commerce has a group that may want to meet, I will check
on that.
Winston-Thomas
John Langley (JL)
We were able to do some work around the south and west embankments. We also
repaired all the doors and windows on both digester equipment houses. We
put electricity back there so that we can have light, and also a permanent
power supply to run the pump in the pipe chase underneath the digesters.
We repaired a sinkhole/groundhog hole that was contributing to the water
in the north digester pair. We have some new fencing on the east perimeter,
and we still have some repair to do there.
GH
There was a new area on the west side of Clear Creek that we recently found
to be contaminated. What is the news on that?
JL
We have submitted a permit to the DNR to construct a fence on the floodplain.
About two weeks ago. We have revised the application and we hope to have
the permit soon. We have purchased materials and as soon as we can cut the
fence row, we will put up warning signs. We are working with Westinghouse
about paying for the fencing.
ML
Is there any word about a schedule for cleanup (at Winston Thomas)?
DH
The Court's schedule says that we are to begin in the Spring of 1998, but
the parties have agreed to move that up to Spring of 1997.
ML
That's just a few months from now.
DH
Yes, but that is what we are shooting for. There are two remedy alternatives
that the company is considering: One in landfilling and the other is solidification
and storage on-site at the tertiary lagoon. That is the two things that
the company is looking at. I think they would want to use the RCRA Landfill
in Utah.
Resa Ramsey (RR)
Some of the material may not be so highly contaminated, such as in the Interem
storage facility, and could go to a special waste landfill in Indiana.
ML
John, can you elaborate on this concrete solidification process.
JL
Well I can tell you it is not very popular down at City Hall. It is a process
where a concrete/ceramic grout is mixed with the contaminated materials,
formed into concrete blocks, which are then stored on site.
Flynn Picardal (FP)
Have they gotten to the point of treatability studies, or have they tested
different methods of solidification?
DH
We haven't seen anything, but we know they have been doing something.
RR
We've seen nothing, but they have been drying some sludge.
MB
I appreciate getting the Westinghouse AEP Report, we will be have experts
review it, and we will try to get it in electronic format. That goes for
the latest ATSDR report as well.
Deb Backus (DB)
Does this Westinghouse Report contain data from this summer's testing? [Mike
Baker gives her his copy to peruse.]
JL
Yes, I thought we had sent you a copy.
DH
One thing to keep in mind when looking at this report is realize that some
of the samples were done in the laboratory, and were quite accurate, while
most of the test were done with immunoassay kits which only have accuracy
within a certain range.
Lemon Lane
RR
Letters were sent from the State to the Griffins and Westinghouse. The gist
of it was that Westinghouse was to give IDEM a proposal for cleanup within
two weeks, and the Griffins are to allow Westinghouse access.
JL
It was determined that if the IDEM and Westinghouse can not work it out,
then a private contractor will be hired, and the bill will go to the PRP.
RR
Understand that I am not part of this process now, so I do not know any
details. It is still within the Office of Environmental Response but in
a different Section.
ML
So this issue is separated from the Consent Decree stuff?
RR
Yes
ML
There was to be a report last meeting on water sampling?
RR
This is the storm sampling that Westinghouse conducted last Spring. It is
still undergoing quality assurance/quality control. They have submitted
the data, but I have not yet reviewed it.
DH
About the well monitoring. EPA has sampled as has Westinghouse, in both
wells and springs around the site, and there is a big volume of data. I
have asked my contractors to create summaries, and we will put them together
in one volume so that people can see it all in one report. This should be
ready sometime in January, 1997.
Lemon Lane Sampling Plan
DH
The sampling is done. Both EPA and Westinghouse completed sampling, and
the results are at the lab. Westinghouse has started working on the Southwest
corner of Lemon Lane. There is a depression there, and with this diagram
you can see how the water can get into the landfill here at the most contaminated
corner, and then get into Illinois Central Springs. The idea is to redirect
the new water over to Sargent's Pond, hoping that it will not then get into
the contaminated area.
MB
The theory behind the Westinghouse plans at Lemon Lane as I understand is
that the years that the site was uncapped allowed the PCBs to migrate into
the karst below, and thus to the Springs. Now with the cap they have drilled
into the site and used a piezometer to tell if the area is getting wet.
If it stays dry, then they can try diverting the water, reducing the flow
to ICC Springs, and set up a permanent treatment plant.
GH
The counter theory is that water comes up from underneath during high water
events, thus wetting the contaminated material. The piezometer would then
tell you if this happens.
DH
That assumes that you get no lateral movement of water. Last year the water
stacked up against the liner. That water could have worked its way down
into the fill - We really don't know.
MB
Here are my questions about this drainage problem at the SW corner. Has
there been any testing here at the corner? If there was runoff for from
the dump here for years before capping, it would seem smart to test here.
DH
We have done some testing, but I have not seen the results, but something
on the order of 10ppm, nothing to substantial.
MB
But have you tested Sargent's Pond?
DH
Yes
Joe Loop
10 ppm would be a lot if it were in your front yard.
DH
That's true
MB
Now Sargent's Pond is also on a sinkhole, but it leaks slower. Is Sargent's
Pond connected in any way to the Landfill. When you keep diverting the water
to that old pond, well what happens is you get a soup bowl effect, it keeps
filling till it overflows. But maybe Sargent's is more like a bathtub, and
when you add more water, more weight, it is pushed through the Karst be
low, like a drain. What I am trying to understand is how does Sargent's
Pond discharge water as fast as it receives it?
DH
Presumably it filters down to the underground drainage system.
MB
I just want to know if that pond would have any effect through elevation
or water level with the Landfill.
GH
In karst typography you have to assume everything is connected to everything
else, because it is.
SH
You know you have conduits, but you don't know where they are. As you increase
the amount of water you increase the pressure gradient, and thus amount
of water going through the system.
DH
Well you could put a good head of water on Sargent's Pond, and push more
water through, it could dislodge sediment into the ICC conduit.
JLp
Didn't they just fill in over at Rogers Quarry just before you got those
high readings at ICC Springs?
JL
I don't think it would have pushed it that far.
JLp
It could have stopped a flow or redirected it.
JL
Mike thinks it is very tight rock up on the north end. If you remember the
bromine dye that we put in up at monitoring well #1, and we came back days
later, and the dye was still there. It is much tighter rock up there, but
he thinks it is still connected to the ICC conduit, just at a much slower
rate. At monitoring well #7 you can drop dye down it and see it an hour
later at the ICC Spring.
DH
It is also the proximity to the most highly contaminated area of the site.
If you have all that water coming down into the site, pushing the material
out, if you can control that, it may have an effect in slowing down the
contaminants coming out at the ICC Spring.
MB
That's why I was asking about the elevation of the pond, to relate it to
847 ft height at the landfill.
GH
Mike, you were asking about aerial views of these site, the Soil and Conservation
Services flies every seven years over all the Indiana Counties. You can
get aerial maps of them.
MB
Well they sure would be a help in understanding all this.
Dave Novak (DN)
We have some back at the office in Chicago.
MB
What does Dick Powell think about this theory of diverting water to slow
the movement of contaminants through conduits.
DH
He is not convinced that you don't have water that stacks up in the area
of MW#7, and that it can't contact contaminated material under the landfill.
This is a hypothesis put forth by the company that the landfill had been
open for 30 years, and most of the contaminants have moved down into the
sediment in the cracks in the stone, and no matter what you do, you can't
get all of it out. But the question is now how much of it is there originally,
and how is it distributed? So you have to weigh the costs of taking out
some of the highly contaminated material so that it does not eventually
go through the system. You can often get piping where you get the effect
of a secondary sinkhole. There are a lot of unknowns about this, how things
move in there.
MB
About the '87 Dioxin sampling. I understand how they did their testing,
I understand they had some problems with their testing. Now I know they
had a range, and anything over a certain amount could not be quantified,
so that if it read over hundred, for example, that could mean a hundred
and ten, or ten thousand. So there is some grey area there where don't know
how much dioxin you have.
DB
It is different problem than high and low cutoffs, it was that there were
interferences in the analysis that give you these spikes. They got some
big numbers, but they could not tell if they were really dioxin, or some
landfill junk that didn't get cleaned out in there.
MB
Are you saying that because the tests were faulty, there is no dioxin there?
DH
No, only that it is a more questionable number than another number.
MB
Welco is responsible for the PCB's, and that is their prime concern, and
you are looking at hot spot remediation looking for PCB, the samples indicate
that where there were PCBs, there were also dioxins, but it also showed
that there were dioxins where there were no PCBs. So there you would have
a problem if you were only looking for PCBs.
DH
What I understand is that the sample was biased, and it was biased in that
they were looking for it.
JL
We looked for ashy, charcoal areas.
GH
You could have dioxins anywhere there is a fire, if you roast a few hotdogs....
MB
But dioxins are still bad.
DH
The problem is that you are looking for a needle in a haystack. The best
way to look at it is at the Springs. We detected some dioxins in the sediment,
it was octa-dioxin, which is pretty ubiquitous. Some of the borings that
we did over the sinkhole areas. So we took a few samples from the bottom
of the sinkholes. Dan Sparks suggested that we sample the fish downstream.
They are bioaccumulators, and would show the effects of dioxin. So we took
six whole body fish for testing. So you should be able to see something
in your sensitive indicators like fish. We don't have results yet.
Mitch Rice (MR)
Where were the samples taken?
Dan Sparks (DS)
Fluck Stone Mill. We have some preliminary data. We didn't find much in
dioxins or furans. We got a 1000 ppt TEQs of PCB and 8 for furans, so the
risk driver is PCBs. But this was a composite sample, we need to analyze
all the data. But as mentioned, that site was open for 30 years, and it
would have gotten into the fish if it were there. Hopefully this test will
clear this up for once for all.
DH
So we are trying to find out it there are dioxins and furans not by direct
measurement, but by implication by looking at the fish.
Neal's Landfill
RR
Westinghouse is targeting mid January for release of the '92 dye tracer
sample results. They are also going to release the results of the dye tracer
sample from 1990. (One was a high flow and the other a low flow study.)
MR
Why is there such a long time between taking the sample, and releasing the
results?
RR
I don't know, I wasn't around when the samples were taken. The data was
collected, but the report was delayed, this happens.
MR
Will there be additional sampling now? Conditions could have changed, do
we know that they have not changed, that they are leaking as badly as ever
or what?
RR
There may be additional testing, if, as we look at the data, there is a
need.
DH
What has been looked at here is what are called isotopic results. What is
being distinguished is various types of water movement. The underlying presumptions
when the springwater treatment plant was designed , and I don't know that
I agree with this, were that when you have a rainstorm, the about first
cubic foot of water that is flushed out will be contaminated as it has been
in contact with the landfill before the displaced water, if you will. Then
you are going to get a rush of water that has a lower concentration of PCBs.
MR
You mean that the PCBs are then being leached out at a slower rate?
DH
No, it is that you have a higher volumetric proportion of water. Now what
you have at the end is higher concentrations again. The water filters through
the site, and this more contaminated water comes last. So if you get the
first cubic feet of water and the last cubic feet of water, then you have
gotten the lion's share of the PCBs. I think this theory is questionable.
I don't fully understand it yet. But this kind of description might help
in designing a plan to deal with the problem.
MB
I have never been able to understand this dilution problem. Say you have
an ounce of PCBs in a gallon of water, and you take that water and treat
it because it is a hazard. Then you have an ounce in five gallons, and because
it is dilute, it is not a problem. But it is the same amount of PCBs. Shouldn't
we be looking at the volume of PCBs overall, not the dilution?
DB
The point is exposure. If you are drink a half a quart of one gallon dilution
you have taken in a maximum amount of PCBs. If you ingest a diluted mixture,
it is less of a danger.
MB
But isn't the primary exposure route through the fish? The more volume you
have going into the stream, the more it goes into the sediment, and is picked
up by the fish. The more you have the higher the concentrations, or it may
get distributed farther downstream. Is dilution the solution?
GH
It is if your standard is low concentrations. But the problem is still there,
just distributed widely.
DH
This is an issue at Lemon Lane as well. If we can effect the volume of water
getting into the catchment basin, then we can cut back the volume at peak
times, and thus be able to use a small water treatment plant to treat this
high volume of water that occurs only once every five years or so. So you
can treat a larger volume of water over a longer period of time. Whether
or not this will work, I don't know, but we have asked them to look into
this, and they have made some progress. This infiltration control at MW#7
may work, if they extend the cap over MW#7, and shunt the water to another
area, it will still get into the subterranean drainage system, but perhaps
in such a way that it reduces the concentrations that come out at ICC Springs.
This not the most straight forward problem to approach. But the bang for
the buck, controlling the flow, as well as excavating some of the stuff
are all part of the solution.
We know that the fractured bedrock has many places for the water to go,
Westinghouse has put video cameras down the monitoring wells, and you can
see the cavities, and the sediment in them. But the Monitoring wells do
not tell much about the Karst water around them. We know that concentrations
are not nearly as high at the monitoring wells as they are 2600 feet away
a the ICC Springs. And the wells are right next to the Landfill and they
are .11 ppm while the ICC Springs is 500ppm in the water. So unless you
are lucky enough to run into a conduit, you will not get high readings from
the wells.
ML
How are we doing on the remediation schedule at Neal's?
DH
Well, suffice it to say we are pretty far behind, this why we are trying
to speed things up. It has been a pretty hectic schedule for us. We have
been having so many disagreements about sampling what we have sampled, that
we have fallen behind. We are trying to find ways to remedy that, and get
back on schedule.
GH
Weren't these other sites given less priority because Lemon Lane and Winston
Thomas have presented a clear and present danger and must be dealt with?
DH
On the other hand, Neal's Dump is a problem waiting to happen, and I hate
to see us get too far away from the schedule. We are having a disagreement.
We must find the quickest way to resolve these conflicts and move on. It
is hard to get a consensus with all the parties we have involved. A good
step has been getting some closure on the LL Sampling Plan, getting the
sampling plan in place, getting the sampling done, getting the ecological
sampling done. The next step is ecological and health assessments. We are
going to have to get additional data, especially around the perimeter of
the landfill. We are trying to get some things done so that we can get to
the point were we can talk about alternatives.
GH
Do you get the sense that things are getting better in terms of agreements
and coming to closure on some of these issues.
DH
I think it is to be expected that there will be disagreements. Some of the
problem is expenses, and as you can see, sometimes we pay part of the costs
just to get past the impasse.
SH
Is the work you've done on these sites applicable to others, or are they
all too unique to use the same techniques and understandings on the different
sites?
DH
I think that as we go through this process, we do establish some precedents.
There is an economy as you move forward.
SH
Would you say there is a similar protocol for Neal's to be established?
RR
We are trying to produce umbrella quality assurance plans, so that we don't
need to create a new one for each site, we can just amend the one we have
to suit the site.
SH
So maybe taking the extra time now is good for establishing precedents,
and the process will move along more quickly at the end.
DH
I hope so!
JL
At the last party principals meeting we also discussed hiring a facilitator
independent of all the parties at he project manager level. Someone who
can indentify and frame issues that we can then take to our bosses.
Dave Novak (DN)
Not so much to take them to our bosses, as to resolve the issues before
they have to go that far.
GH
Here's another person that must be brought up to speed on all the issues.
RR
The facilitator need not be a geologist of chemist to facilitate, you just
need to make the issues clear, talk to all the parties, establish deadlines,
and to help move the process along.
DH
On the technical end we have resolve many of the issues ourselves. But there
is no mechanism for resolution, and our executives don't know what to do
with the information, they don't know if eight samples of fish are enough.
We want a way for this process to work more quickly.
SH
How do you decide who pays for the facilitator. If any one party pays, then
the facilitator may favor them.
DH
We have discussed this, and we are deadlocked. There has been some discussion
of allocation. Not everyone will pay the same, but we will all kick in.
DN
Everybody gets to submit names, everybody gets to vote on them, it is a
pretty complicated process.
Larami Wilson
Dan, if you feel you are getting closure on the sampling plan, doesn't this
contradict the information given at the City meeting on the plan, that this
is only the beginning, and that if the results of this sampling show the
need, there would be more done. Is this closure?
DH
That's a good question. It is not resolved if there will be additional sampling.
On the other hand, there has been sampling done, and it has been done. Two
years ago we were at a point where we were going to do no sampling, zero
sampling in the Landfill. We have come a long way. If we get results that
say there are big areas that need to be addressed, before anyone goes digging,
they will want to know the extent of what is there. It is premature to decide
if there is to be additional sampling, and I don't want to fight with them
about it.
GH
What about the company formerly know as Westinghouse? Will the new companies
retain liability?
DH
There are to be two parts. The broadcasting division will be own its own.
The other, Welco, will handle the environmental and pension obligations.
I don't think there will be division of liability.
JL
They are saying that they will not have the changeover done until the third
quarter of 1997. The new company will be fully capitalized in regards to
its liabilities.
DH
The Consent Decree has addressed this, any successors are liable. I find
it hard to believe that Westinghouse is using this split just to dump its
liabilities.
MB
If it could be done, companies would have been doing it for the past thirty
years.
IK
They have been, and we have to keep an eye on them.
Lemon Lane [again]
DH
The less water you have coming into the system, the less you have to treat.
And the less there is at peak times, the smaller the plant that is needed.
MB
From what I have seen they have been doing a good job, everything looks
ok. There was very little disturbance of the cap, a small area, it was handled
well. Easiest way is to come off of 37 Bypass on Vernal Pike heading east,
and there is a big "for sale" sign, and if it's dry, you can see
where they are building the pond. The maps and aerial photos help us to
understand what is going on, if you could bring anything you have [from
the EPA] , that would be great. We could have a plane fly over and take
pictures, but ...
JL
Jim Patrick would be the one to ask who was the photographer who took their
(Welco) aerial photos.
Ecological Assessment - Lemon Lane
DH
We needed to get this under way before the winter set in, and it happened
between CIC Meetings. [since Oct 15, before Dec 5] We took eight (8) samples
of fish at two different levels, and 5 crayfish at each of six locations
We tested for pcbs, and lipids, and we did dioxin/furan testing on 12 of
the samples. So we should get a good handle on this. Next is the ecological
assessment itself, and people will want to comment on this. There will be
some discussion about this. And, this is coming up shortly.
Dan Sparks (DS)
We had good weather the first three days, then it rained, and the water
started rising. I don't know how it went at stations 5 and 6, whether we
got good samples, because they were critical sites.
DH
Well like you said the water was rising and it got murky. You could not
see the fish to catch them even if your shocked them. So you're right we
may need to go back up there and do some additional work there.
GH
So the sites were mostly south of Third St?
DS
Country Club Road was station #3, Fluck Stone Mill was station #4, and either
side of Harrodsburg were stations #5 and #6. Lower Clear Creek had some
real access problems, steep banks and difficult access. They are for the
most part stations that IDEM has used in the past. We took creek chubs at
Country Club Rd. At Fluck Mill we went with white sucker and rock bass.
GH
There should be some sort of baseline for this. Hasn't the State issued
periodic reports on this?
DS
As part of this Resa compiled all the previous data.
GH
So if the recent release at ICC Springs were to affect things, would we
see a rise in pcb lipids?
DS
An important feature of this study is that we used individual fish rather
than composite samples. Most environmental monitoring programs use composite
sampling on the theory that for statistical purposes, you put the samples
all together. With our method you can get individual numbers and have more
powerful tool for modeling. And with this sampling we have sediment, water,
fish, and invertebrates all from the same areas, and there will be opportunities
for food web modeling.
SH
What about catfish for composite sampling? They are bottom feeders and would
be very different.
DS
IDEM and FWS samples historically contained some catfish samples. Where
they could be obtained in sufficient numbers, they would probably have been
used. Since I wasn't at stations 5 and 6 during this sampling event, I am
not certain whether or not they were used. Our objective was to the extent
practical, cover the 3 main trophic guilds for fish in clear creek: small
minnows (creek chubs), predator fish (sunfish or bass, if possible), and
bottom feeder (white suckers, catfish, carp, listed in order of likelihood
of finding them.). Data has not shown catfish to be particularly different
than other bottom feeders present. The data is about an inch thick on paper,
there is a lot of data, and it will take some work to analyze it. At two
of the downstream sites we took filets of six of the fish, analyzed them,
and then analyzed the carcass. So we can reassemble the data, and it minimizes
the number of big fish we have to take out of that murky water.
DH
This data is not to see what is happening to the fish, it is a model to
extrapolate or approximate effects of pcbs in fish have on higher organisms.
DS
Including human health..
DH
We are not taking public comment on this really, but some specialized people
who might make informed comment on the Ecological Assessment could have
a copy when it is ready.
MB
We have advertised for experts in this field to help us understand the issue.
MR
I would like to point out that it is still difficult to get information
from the parties in a timely and easy to manage format. If we could just
standardize formats, this would help. A good solution for now might be PDF,
Portable Document Format. The EPA's most recent PCB document [Cancer-Dose
Assessment] is available in PDF format. The writing module is a commercial
product, but the reader is free, so anyone can read it.
ML
Let's set the next meeting date.
RR
There may not be too much going on between now and then, I don't think the
test results will be in.
DH
We will need to talk about the ecological assessment, and how it is to be
conducted.
SH
Where are you in the process?
RR
We are beginning, we are working on a draft plan.
SH
We wouldn't mind seeing a draft plan.
DH
It may be good to target some people like Sally and Melissa, they could
see this thing, and they could offer some useful comments. It's not like
this is up for public comment, this is kind of specialized stuff. But I
think we could get some good feedback.
MB
We have posted ads on the internet for experts in this field because Melissa,
and the other people we have used do not feel comfortable analyzing this
aspect of the process. But I would like to get the information quicker than
last time [LLSP] when it was here is the information, comments within a
week.
MR
As to facilitating the movement of these documents, I would recommend that
we look at moving towards Adobe's PDF - Portable Document Format. A single
file can have text, pictures, graphs, etc., and can be read on any platform,
Windows, Mac, Dos, Unix, whatever. All that is needed is the free reader
software for you platform you use. The publisher must have the writing module,
and it does cost, but it will import documents from all major programs.
It allows the public easier access to documents. The EPA's release last
week of the Cancer/Dose Assessment was in PDF, so perhaps we could go with
this format on the local level as well.
RR
I can't promise anything.
DH
I think this is interesting and will look into it. But it is Westinghouse's
contractor while ultimately decide the format.
MR
What I am saying is this Adobe Acrobat can import just about any format
into its PDF format. Perhaps the EPA could encourage these contractors (and
Westinghouse) to begin turning there documents into PDF for distribution.
It would certainly help communication by standardizing on one format.
ML
Next meeting is set for January 16, 1997, 7:00pm, McCloskey Room |
