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Meetings: CIC | |||||||||||||||
Citizens Information CommitteeMinutes of Public MeetingApril 11, 1996 Attendees Deb Backhus, IU School of Public and Environmental AffairsMike Baker,
COPA Observers David Porter, Citizen Approval of Minutes Michael List presided over the meeting, which began at 7:25 pm. Theminutes were approved without revision. Joint Parties Schedule for Bloomington Consent Decree Sites The Schedule was handed out, and perused by those attending. Hopkins: The EPA had done three quarters (3/4) of the ground watersampling for residential wells, springs and streams. The EPA has gone through a number of meetings, and they are onschedule, even though it is "a real killer" to meet. Most of the work has been done on Lemon Lane and Neal's Landfill asscheduled. Historical Information Review of Land uses for Winston Thomas and Lemon Lane Commercial uses are proposed Langley: Winston-Thomas would likely be a commercial zone, like a large shoppingcenter, with anchor stores, or 15 to 18 business park type parcels.These scenarios are not set in stone, any such new zoning proposalsmust go through administrative and zoning reviews, and neither has aguaranteed outcome. This scenario does make some sense, considering thecity is growing south, and that growth is restricted in the southeast,that this would be a good location for a commercial site. Baker: The point is that by knowing the most likely use of the area willhelp determine to what level the area needs to be cleaned, is thatcorrect? Langley: Present zoning is institutional, with an eye toward creatinggreen space in this area (WT). It is one of the last nodes in the greenspace planning, but would we want green space there? I think I wouldwant to push it a little further west. Baker: Hopkins: Well, if you know to what use the site will be used for, ithelps you decide how and to what degree the site will be cleaned. List: It seems that WT is so finite that you could just take everything. Hopkins: Down to what level? List: Down to nothing Hopkins: That would be a lot of material. We need to know theparameters. Langley: Fish & Wildlife mentioned in a tech meeting that if abody of water were involved that they would want to see &laqno; partper billion cleanup level. I don't know if this is possible.How far down is bedrock? (Twelve to twenty (12-20) feet.) List: It just does not seem that much material. Baker: It would seem easier for Westinghouse to thoroughly clean thisup, than to leave some, and have to worry about future liability. Itwould seem that with as easy a site as WT is (compared to Lemon Lane)to remediate, that the cleanup standard there will set the tone forthe work on Lemon Lane. It is a concern that we are already consideringwhat is acceptable to leave behind, even though the site has not beenfully characterized. Hopkins: What technologies are being considered for this site,considering future use? Westinghouse has looked at high temperaturethermal desorption, BCD, and soil washing with a solvent. Theirconclusion was that these options would be in essence experimentaltechnologies They felt the best two alternatives will be consolidationon site, or sending to a TSCA landfill. Would consolidation on site beacceptable considering the future use scenarios? Langley: The city is not happy with the idea of consolidation on site,but does not rule out the possibility if Westinghouse will assumeresponsibility for site maintenance in perpetuity. Porter: Are you considering (with the consolidation scenario) thepossibility of a bonding agent to insure maintenance of the site, aseparate entity funded by Westinghouse? Baker: Assuming one of the mentioned land uses, what cleanup levelwould be acceptable? (25ppm for commercial) Hopkins: It is a problem, there are so many factors, is the land covered,is there leaching to the nearby creek, etc. The problem is even morepronounced at Lemon Lane. Baker: Hopkins: We are seriously looking at that. Westinghouse is interestedin possibly pushing up the schedule on this site, by a half a year tothe first quarter of 1997 instead of the last quarter. They want tosave time, by eliminating remediations that are not applicable up front. Baker: Considering the releases to wildlife, wouldn't it be smart tomove ahead quickly and solve the problems with the constant releasesto wildlife from the lagoon? (Hopkins: What constant releases? Porter:Wildlife was found to have 19 to 78 times the allowed levels of PCBSfor consumption of poultry. Biological release.) I realize this maynot yet be a section 106 emergency cleanup level, but we are farpast "We'll work it into our schedule". At what point would youconsider it an emergency, and what would that change in yourapproach to the cleanup (schedule).? Hopkins: We do have procedures for emergency cleanup, but we are alsobound by the Consent Decree. We can basically do what we can pay for. List: As to this letter from William Sanjour, (handed out before themeeting officially opened. Sanjour is a policy analyst for the EPA,and has been investigating the lack of an RIFS in the BloomingtonSuperfund sites), I do not know quite how to take this. He recommendsa review of the legality of the Consent Decree if the functionalequivalence has not been performed. Baker: Are there any meetings scheduled between his office and yours? Hopkins: Not that I know of. I think the contact should come from theombudsman's office. Bob Martin, or Sanjour should contact Region Vand have a dialog. I read the letter, and I think I understand itand its recommendation. List: So should there be a legal review of whether the Consent Decreeis valid, and should it be determined that the consent decree is invalid,is that a good thing or a bad thing? It seems to me it is a good thing,because the Consent Decree has prevented the EPA from simply saying:"Clean it up and pay for it." Hopkins: That is a valid criticism. It should also be recognized thatthe Federal Court had a three pronged test to determine if this was avalid contract. This happened in the mid-80's, I wasn't there, BillSanjour wasn't there, and I see this memo as a revisionist approachas to what happened ten years ago. You are questioning what the Federaljudge did ten years ago. He is using what the Indiana Legislaturedid after the Decree was signed. How can you fault a judgefor not taking into account what is going to happen ten yearsin the future? List: We're not trying to fault the judge, but ascertain whetherwe might legitimately ask him to review that. Baker: It may have been a flaw in his (Sanjour's) argument thathe used the Indiana Legislature's actions to show public opposition,rather than the petitions, lawsuits, etc, filed by the public. Hopkins: I was reading material from that time, newspaper articles,that were favorable to the Consent Decree. Porter: Where did you read that, who from the public supported that. Rice: Kissel from SPEA. I just had that article out. Porter: Just because some spin doctor says its ok, don't read that asagreement on the part of the public. Many people were really upsetat the agreement (including the president of the county commissioners) Hopkins: All right, you know better than I about this, I just hadthe impression the concern has been growing. Baker: We purchased 52 hours of video tape of all those meetings, andin almost all of them, the public was concerned. I know there is somediscussion of this issue within EPA , and with the legal issues,Justice may also become involved. List: But this is not just going to wither on the vine? Hopkins: Well I see this a "so what". If the parties are going tomove ahead ... List: No, no, no. I think there is a big point. You have had towork within this nice cozy agreement. If the Consent Decree goesaway, you are left with all this stuff that needs to be cleaned up,and you can tell Westinghouse to clean it up and pay for it. Thisway we do not have to talk about cleaning up hot spots, (which I findhorrifying), you can tell them to clean it all up. Hopkins: We would be adopting the same approach, that is the way wedo business now. You have to look at the contempory setting, now, thatis what we would tell them to do. List: If the Consent Decree was not in force, you would be doing thesame thing now? Hopkins: Not the same process, we would be using the same technicaltools and the same policy tools. List: You would be saying drill just 25 holes in Lemon Lane and notpay attention to what else is out there? Hopkins: I'm not saying that. It is just atypical to go digging inmunicipal landfills. Porter: It is not typical that there are 440 tons of Inerteen in amunicipal landfill sitting on karst. Hopkins: We don't exactly know that (the amount of Inerteen) Porter: Well let's use it until we have a better one. Hopkins: Yeah but we don't know where it is either. Porter: Don't you guys do math? You're scrambling around at WT,over 88,000 gallons at 2ppb. You've got Quarry Springs releasing14,000 gallons a day during low flow. This water was measuredat 15ppb, at low flow, and 400ppb (1500ppb in the sediment). So thisis source of 200 times as much material that pumps out 100,000 gallonsevery seven days. Within a month that hole could be putting out agallon of PCBs. And you're scrambling around worrying about oneten thousandth of a gallon at Wiston Thomas. Where are your priorities? Hopkins: I understand what you are saying. We've taken Lemon Laneas far as we can take it, and they are examining alternatives forit too. Part of it is hot spots, but I think a central part of itis going to be control of water. Whether we excavate the entirelandfill or not, that stream is going to be contaminated for a longtime. The extent to which we can control the water isanother issue to be examined. Can you reduce the water getting intothe system, can you extend the cap, can you reduce the amount ofsurface water that gets into the stream? If you can notstop water from getting into the stream, can you mitigate the peaks?If you don't have spikes coming through the stream, what kind oftreatment system can you have? This has got to be a component ofthe remediation. Porter: Why are you guys so concerned with WT, when so much isleaking out of the springs? Hopkins: Just because we are focusing on WT does not mean we areletting go of Lemon Lane. Porter: Who is protecting the citizenry? Hopkins: That is our primary purpose, protecting the citizenry. It's
justthat there are things you can do, and there are some things youcan do
later. Lemon Lane is something we can do later.There will be no control
of that stream until there is atreatment plant there. Rice: The background levels of PCBs are rising with each rain,you can not eat the fish in our creeks and streams, we should havebeen treating this water long ago. Winston Thomas - Current Situation Langley: (Referring to a diagram supplied by Mr. Hopkins)Two sets of
digesters are at WT, a north and south pair. Digestersare the end of the
sewage treatment process, and are filled withsolids suspended in water,
where biological destruction takes place.During a walk through with the
EPA risk assessment person, a crackwas noticed in one of the north pair
of tanks. (The tanks are about25 feet above grade, and 25 feet below grade.
The walls are made ofaggregate concrete and are about one foot thick). This
was the firstsighting of this crack, and caused some alarm. By comparing
thefreeboard in July of 1994 and the present, it was determined thatsignificant
leakage had occurred, approximately 88,000 gallons.Previously Westinghouse
had paid to remove and decontaminate thelids of three of the digesters.
The southeast digester lid is stillin place. Hopkins: (Pictures of the digesters and the crack were passed around.) Therehas not been much leakage from the crack. It was leaking valves, notthe crack that caused the major release. The water pumped from thehallway tested out at 2.1 and 2.2 ppb, well below the limits of10 ppb set by the city for release into the environment. This waterwas discharged as it was well below action limits. Activity in thehallway was minimized so as to not disturb the sediments which nodoubt contain higher concentrations. The digester is now being pumpedout (from the top), and the water is in the process of beingcleaned by filtration through charcoal filters preceded by a5 micron prefilter. This process is proceeding, albeit slowly,so as not to foul the filtration system. The digesters were compared to a Melita filter, only with PCBs instead ofcoffee grounds. The idea of pumping is to relieve pressure onthe tank with the crack. When the water level is reduced, it isto be maintained at a low level. Then the sludge can be movedfrom one tank to another so that it is below the level where pipesand valves that have been exposed to the freeze/thaw cycle can beplugged to prevent leakage. This allows the EPA a level ofconfidence that no leakage will occur before a remediation ofthe site has begun. Rice: What analysis tools are being used to determine that thiscrack is not going to become a significant structural problem?Remember that the last two releases occurred even though the EPA andCity thought that the site was secure. Was a structural engineerconsulted? Hopkins: We have realized, to the point of embarrassment, that thereneeds to be more vigilance in monitoring this site. It is for thisreason that we are lowering the water levels in the digesters, andplugging the pipes and valves. Porter: What are the total release amounts (in gallons) we are talkingabout here? A calculator is used to determine that there is 238,600 gallons ofsludge at a concentration of 379 ppm in the northwest digester. TheNE digester has a concentration of 69 ppm with a similar amount. Porter: Why is there such a difference in concentration between thetwo tanks? Hopkins: It was just the way it was when the plant was shut down. I don't think this is the way a plant should be shut down. Langley: I agree with you. Hopkins: There are about a million gallons of sludge in all thedigesters. Porter: But we are talking about only a few cubic feet of Inerteentotal, compared to 440 tons of Inerteen at Lemon Lane. It is timeyou guys started talking about absolute pounds of PCBs you aredealing with. I am not impressed by millions of cubic feet ofdirt, just to clean up a few pounds of PCBs, when you total releasemay be in the thousands of tons. Hopkins: Our approach will continue to be not to concentrate on thetotal number of pounds, but on how much is left when we are donewith cleanup, whatever is best to protect human health and theenvironment. And I am not comfortable with the 440 ton number, Ithink it may be closer to 40 tons, and we are not even sure of that.We have soft numbers here. Considering cost/benefit, we need to lookat remediating releases to the environment from the Illinois CentralSpring. If we can contain them here we will have something close toa solution, as there seems to be little release to the other springsin the area. Porter: But this is not the case right now, and the releases arestill occurring. Hopkins: At Lemon Lane we are looking at a solution that protectshuman health and the environment. Status of Landfill Permits at Bottom Road Ramsey: There has been no review of the permits. They are in myoffice. I will notify the CIC if such a review is initiated. EarthTech List: Sona no longer comes to the meetings, so we need to have someoneto transcribe and type the minutes. Mike, can COPA handle this? Baker: We can have an official transcriber do the work. Hopkins: I don't think we need full transcription, like a courtdocument. It become too much of a job to do the work, and to readthe resulting minutes. Let's try some condensation so that just theimportant points are covered. Baker: We would be happy to handle this. List: The way I generate the agenda is to go through the minutes,and add any promises that have been made at the previous meeting,so that nothing is left out. Novak: The audio and video tapes can be saved, and if there areany questions as to what has happened, these can be reviewed. Baker: We can do this, and notify the HT of meeting dates. Should wecontinue the practice of sending out draft minutes to members prior toposting them on the BBS, or making them official? Novak: Yes, this is how it has been done in the past, and is a good idea. Next Meeting is June 6, 1996. Meeting adjourned at 9:30 pm Submitted by Mitch Rice, COPA |
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